The Alt-FI Manifesto

Posted on by Mr. Groovy

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Warning: If you have a delicate constitution, you will likely be offended by what follows. I offer no apologies. It is MY manifesto, after all. If you disagree, I look forward to reading YOUR manifesto, and I will respectfully listen to YOUR views. I’m simply asking that you respectfully listen to mine. This is America—the last bastion of free speech on earth—and there’s no reason why areas of contention can’t be discussed intelligently and affably. Just because they’re buttheads on Fox News and MSNBC doesn’t mean we have to be. With that, I’m taking the plunge…

In my book, The Groovy Guide to Financial Independence, I warn readers at the start of the final chapter (Chapter Ten) that they’re about to encounter some “alt-FI bullshit.” But I never explicitly state what the definition of alt-FI is. This post was written to correct that oversight.

Alt-FI  and Mainstream FI Defined

Alt-FI stands for alt-financial independence, and it’s a take-off on the political monikers, alt-right and alt-left. Alt-right people and alt-left people, in turn, are considered fringe people. Alt-right people are righties who reject mainstream conservatism and alt-left people are lefties who reject mainstream liberalism. Does this then mean that alt-FI people reject the mainstream financial strategies promulgated by the FI community? No. But alt-FI people do differ from mainstream FI people on a number of key issues.

Before I get to those key issues, though, I think it’s important to provide some back-of-the-envelope definitions for both alt-FI and mainstream FI.

Alt-FI people are people who champion the pillars of financial independence from a libertarian or freedomist perspective. Mainstream FI people, on the other hand, are people who champion the pillars of financial independence from a socialist or collectivist perspective—especially as it relates to the safety net, higher education, and healthcare. As far as I can tell, mainstream FI people far outnumber alt-FI people (that’s why I’m calling them “mainstream” FI people). In fact, I think I’m the only official member of the alt-FI community. Perhaps there are alt-FI people out there who just don’t know they’re alt-FI. We’ll see.

Okay, with the back-of-the-envelope definitions of alt-FI and mainstream FI out of the way, let’s see how these worldviews differ on some key issues.

Quick aside. No one, that I’m aware of, has actually codified “mainstream FI thoughts.” So when I label something a mainstream FI thought, I’m talking out of a certain orifice that I probably shouldn’t be talking out of. But I have been a member of the FI community for over three years now, and I think I have a good grasp of what this community generally believes, and what the most influential thought-shapers in this community generally believe. Should I err in my description of a mainstream FI thought, however, I implore you to digitally smack me upside my head. As always, my objective here is not to “win.” It’s more important to me to get it right than to be right.

The Definition of Privilege

To alt-FI people, privilege is lawful preferential treatment given by those in charge of an institution or a government entity to some of the people they employ, recruit, or serve. In other words, privilege is when the cool people frown on unfettered competition and say it’s okay to give some people a leg up at the expense of others. “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

A good example of this is the physical requirements needed to join the Marines. In order to join the Marines, recruits must pass an initial strength test (IST). For men, passing the IST requires doing two pull-ups. For women, passing the IST requires hanging on a pull-up bar for 12 seconds (i.e., zero pull-ups).

Another good example of privilege is the test scores needed to enter our elite colleges. Not one elite college in the country requires black and Hispanic applicants to meet or exceed the SAT scores of their white and Asian counterparts. In one study, for instance, black skin was worth 310 SAT points. Hispanic heritage was worth 130 SAT points. And in another study, it was found that if Harvard based admissions solely on academics, Asians would go from 19 percent of the typical freshman class to 43 percent.

Mainstream FI people wouldn’t describe the above examples of clear cut preferential treatment as female privilege or black and Hispanic privilege. No, the mainstream FI definition of privilege is much more nebulous. From what I can gather, it seems to mean having more cultural, financial, or human capital than others. That’s it. It doesn’t matter if that superior cultural, financial, or human capital was acquired justly, and it doesn’t matter if the tools and attitudes necessary to build cultural, financial, or human capital are free for everyone to use or mimic. If you grew up in a two-parent household, with parents who made middle-class incomes or better, and who passed along virtues and attitudes that were conducive to gaining worthwhile skills and building wealth, your success, should you have any, really isn’t valid. You’re kind of a cheater. And unless you acknowledge your “privilege,” and continually flagellate yourself over it, any advice you have for those struggling financially is damn near worthless.

What I Don’t Like About the Mainstream FI Definition of Privilege

Most mainstream FI people mistakenly use the word privilege as a synonym for good fortune or luck. And they use it because, quite frankly, good fortune and luck are part of most if not all individual FI narratives, and acknowledging the role that good fortune and luck play is an important part of being intellectually honest. But there’s also an ugly side to how the word privilege is used by some mainstream FI people. Here, then, is a review of that ugly side.

It’s Too Often Used as a Smear

It’s one thing to recount your good fortune or luck and label it “privilege.” I don’t like it, I think it’s an abuse of language, but at least the abuse of language is being directed at yourself. It’s quite another thing entirely to point the steely finger of indignation at another person—a person you really know nothing about, I may add—and accuse him or her of having “privilege.” Why? Because in that situation, it’s not being used to further anyone’s understanding of anything. It’s being used as a smear.

All too often, those who hurl the term “privilege” at others are effectively saying, “I don’t like what you said, I can’t refute you intellectually, so I’ll just accuse you of having a trait that most people have been conditioned to find objectionable.”

The Smear Component Is Only Used Selectively

The social acceptability of men hitting men is far more widespread than the social acceptability of men hitting women (thank God). Women dominate several well-paying professions, including public relations, nursing, teaching, veterinary medicine, and gynecology. Women also do better than men in school and are far less likely than men to be incarcerated, homeless, suicidal, injured at work, or killed in battle. And, yet, I never hear the term “female privilege” being bandied about.

Likewise, Asian-Americans are the most successful ethnic group in America by a considerable margin. Simply put, Asian-Americans are kicking ass academically and financially. And, yet, I never hear the term “Asian privilege” being bandied about.

I do, however, hear the terms “male privilege” and “white privilege” being bandied about a lot. Why? It seems that every group in America has some degree of privilege if privilege simply means having more than other groups or doing better than other groups. Hispanics certainly have “privilege” when it comes to immigration. Blacks certainly have “privilege” when it comes to athletic prowess. Why do mainstream FI people only have a preoccupation for certain examples of privilege? Why do mainstream FI people only expect people from certain groups to admit their “unfair advantages” and flagellate themselves publicly?

It’s Intellectually Lazy

How does requiring certain people with “privilege” to publicly flagellate themselves over their “unfair advantages” help those without “privilege?” In other words, how does the gnashing of your teeth over your fine, middle-class upbringing help those who grew up in single-parent households and had to deal with less than stellar schools and neighbors? I suppose it might help if this demeaning self-flagellation ritual led to more effective laws and policies. But exactly what laws and policies are currently forcing poor young girls to have children they can’t afford—a significant factor in the perpetuation of poverty? What laws and policies are currently forcing poor children to take the free education they’re provided for granted—again, a significant factor in the perpetuation of poverty?

My biggest gripe with the mainstream FI definition of privilege is that it’s intellectually lazy. Too many mainstream FI people believe that one’s starting position in life is automatically one’s ending position. “Non-privilege begets non-privilege” and “privilege begets privilege.” In other words, too many mainstream FI people have too little regard for human agency. They believe that those born with less will forever have less and it’s unbelievably cruel to hold the have-nots accountable for any part of their lamentable circumstances. Likewise, those born with more will forever have more and it’s unbelievably foolish to give the haves any credit for any success they may achieve. Everything is fixed. The Gini coefficient is as immutable as the law of gravity. Human agency means squat.

But are these notions valid? Is it really cruel to hold the have-nots accountable for any part of their lamentable circumstances? And is it really foolish to give the haves any credit for any success they may achieve?

Perpetuating Financial Moronity

I obviously think it’s not on both accounts. First, let’s look at the notion that “non-privilege begets non-privilege” and it’s cruel to hold the have-nots accountable for any part of their lamentable circumstances. Consider the following scenario:

You come across a dyed-in-the-wool white supremacist. This loathsome individual is your new co-worker or neighbor. But after interacting with this loathsome individual for a little while, you come to learn that he inherited some pretty awful broken moral windows while growing up. His parents were inveterate racists, and so were all his kin, friends, and neighbors. You also come to learn that this loathsome individual would be disowned by his entire family if he ever renounced any part of his white supremacist upbringing. His family doesn’t suffer “traitors” under any circumstances.

Here’s a question for you. Would you give this white supremacist a pass? I mean, after all, it wasn’t his fault he was born into a racist family. So how can you hold him accountable for any of his racist views?

I could be wrong, but I doubt you would be willing to give our white supremacist a pass, especially if you’re from the SJW wing of the mainstream FI community. You may not expect him to purge his racist views overnight and become the next Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr., but you’d expect him to embrace a more tolerant worldview. And you wouldn’t make any excuses for him if he failed to fix his most glaring broken moral windows and passed those broken moral windows onto his children.

Now let’s flip the switch. Let’s substitute broken financial windows for broken moral windows. Our damaged individual isn’t a white supremacist, he’s a financial moron. And he’s a financial moron largely because he inherited some pretty awful broken financial windows from his have-not family, friends, and neighbors. Do you give this fellow a pass for his moronic financial behaviors? And if so, why? Why is the moral have-not held accountable for his failures and not the financial have-not? Why do you expect the moral have-not to change his ways but not the financial have-not?

This is why I find the notion that “non-privilege begets non-privilege” to be intellectually lazy. It’s not considering the ultimate ramifications of giving the financial have-nots a pass. In effect, by not holding the have-nots accountable—by telling them it’s okay to leave their broken financial windows broken—mainstream FI people are subsidizing financial moronity. And whatever you subsidize, you get more of. The end result is multi-generational financial moronity. Broken financial windows are never fixed. Young girls and women who are too broke to have kids have kids. Children who can least afford to take education for granted take education for granted. And there sit the cool people—the politicians, the activists, the do-gooders, and the mainstream FI-ers who are always ready to comfort the have-nots. “It’s not your fault, have-nots. It’s the fault of systemic racism and sexism and the evil one percent.”

And the cool people have all the facts and studies to prove it.

And so the circle of financial moronity spins round and round, year after dreary year. When did LBJ declare war on poverty, by the way?

Quick aside. For a jarring look at the circle of financial moronity in action, check out this article from Quillette.

Hail Those with More Who Maintain or Create More

Now let’s turn to the second reason why I find the mainstream FI understanding of privilege to be intellectually lazy—the notion that “privilege begets privilege” and the privileged don’t deserve any credit for maintaining or advancing their so-called advantages.

Here’s an experiment for you. Stop showering. And while you’re at it, stop brushing your teeth, shaving, and performing any other grooming activity you do on a regular basis. How many days will it take before you become a social pariah, an unsightly hirsute walking stink bomb?

The unavoidable law of entropy afflicts all bodies—from the camera and scale challenged, all the way up to the most “privileged” examples of the human form imaginable.

And the unavoidable law of entropy doesn’t just affect the body. It affects all things under the sun, including “privilege.” Case in point. I have a friend who grew up with a lot more than I did. His father was a furrier who made fur coats for the biggest retailers in the New York City fur scene (hey, does any New York reader remember Fred the Furrier?). Needless to say, his father did very well for himself. After high school, my friend and his brother started working full time in their father’s fur business. And they began to do very well for themselves as well. But then tragedy struck. My friend’s father died suddenly from a heart attack. The successful fur business his dad had labored mightily to create was now his and his brother’s sole responsibility.

To their credit, my friend and his brother did an admirable job keeping the fur business humming along. Workers, suppliers, landlords, and bankers were being paid, clients were being satisfied, and profits were being made. But then, as the 90s appeared on the horizon, tragedy, so to speak, struck again. In the 60s and 70s, fur coats had a lot of social cachet. In fact, I distinctly remember contestants and audience members swooning whenever a fur coat was a potential prize on a game show. By the mid to late 80s, however, that began to change. The cool people, especially those in entertainment and fashion, began to recognize the unseemliness of the fur business (it’s hard to put a happy face on the clubbing of baby seals). By the time the 90s arrived, the rout was on. The fur business was in irreversible decline (in the United States, anyway).

But my friend and his brother adjusted. They both moved to Dallas and transitioned to the swimming apparel business. This transition, in turn, wasn’t easy. Both my friend and his brother worked their asses off. Today, they are as successful as ever. And, yet, despite nearly forty years of intense toil, they’re still toiling away. My friend also started a real estate side hustle. Between his swimming apparel business and his real estate ventures, he’s working 12 hours a day, six days a week.

Entropy is real—especially in business and personal finance. Those with more don’t get to coast. More isn’t a guarantee. More without the proper attention quickly becomes less. Those with more who maintain or grow that more in an honorable fashion deserve our admiration, not snarky dismissal. And those in the mainstream FI community who think otherwise, who think it’s okay to hate on anyone “born on third base,” are exhibiting a considerable degree of intellectual laziness.

Worshiping at the Altar of Diversity

Alt-FI people don’t worship at the altar of diversity. This means they don’t dismiss outright or automatically judge inferior those things that lack diversity. For instance, the NBA and the NFL are both overwhelmingly black and one hundred percent male. And this is perfectly fine. The NBA and the NFL don’t need to look more like America. The lack of whites, Hispanics, Asians, and women doesn’t make the entertainment value of the two sports any less compelling. As long as the NBA and the NFL aren’t discriminating—which is categorically the case—the fans really shouldn’t give a rat’s ass what skin color and what plumbing the players have. If the players skew a certain color and gender, so be it.

Likewise, alt-FI people don’t dismiss outright or automatically judge inferior any FI-related things that lack diversity. Take a look at a recent group photo from a meet-up that Gwen from Fiery Millennials posted on her blog.

Update: Oh, man, did I step on some religious toes—civic religious toes, that is. And I completely understand the vitriol. You don’t challenge the status quo and expect to go unscathed. But that’s what free speech is all about. All’s fair in love, war, and blogging. And I wouldn’t have it any other way. Those who dislike this post have a duty to say so. Gwen is one such blogger who vehemently opposes this post. I think her reasons are wrong, but that’s another matter. She doesn’t want me to use the picture of the meet-up that appeared on her post, and that’s all that counts. Gwen is a good person, and I have no problem honoring her wishes. I have thus removed the picture of the meet-up from this post. For context, you can head over to Gwen’s website to see it. Anyway, the picture of the meet-up shows a lot of smiling white faces.

There’s a lot of whiteness in that photo. And there’s nothing wrong with that, providing, of course, that the meet-up organizers didn’t discriminate. Since I’m confident that discrimination played no role in the demographics of this meet-up, I’m sure it was a very worthwhile affair, and I’m jealous I wasn’t there. And I would feel the exact same way if this photo contained a lot of Hispanic-ness, or a lot of gay-ness, or a lot of Asian-ness. Alt-FI people simply don’t give a shit about diversity. They believe that concerning oneself with the demographics of a meet-up or conference is as inappropriate and ridiculous as concerning oneself with the jean allocation of a meet-up or conference (“Oh, no, too many people are wearing Levi’s”).

Mainstream FI people, on the other hand, are diversity mongers and are very uncomfortable when anything in the FI community lacks diversity. They see a meet-up like the one above and they either cringe or lament. “It’s too white!” And they all agree that “something needs to be done about it.”

When I was growing up, our elites were very big on “brotherly love” and a “colorblind society.” And I remember my elementary and junior high school teachers continually telling me and my classmates that “we’re all the same under the skin.”

I’m not a fan of our current elites. They’re much too anti-freedom for my taste. In fact, when it comes to their list of concerns and priorities, I don’t think freedom even makes the list. But that’s a matter for one of the twisted books I’m working on. I only mention this to show that I’m not a slave to whatever received wisdom is passed down to the benighted. If our elites get it wrong, I say so. Likewise, if our elites get something right, I salute them. And our elites from the 60s and 70s got it right when they championed a colorblind society. The dream of a colorblind society, where we’re only judged by “the content of our character,” is one of the noblest aspirations I can think of.

Each of us has a choice. We can condition ourselves to be colorblind or color-aware. Alt-FI people believe we move closer to a “more perfect union” by being colorblind, ethnicity-blind, gender-blind, sexual orientation-blind, and “whatever irrelevant trait you can think of”-blind. Mainstream FI people, on the other hand, believe we move closer to a “more perfect union” by being color-aware and encouraging everyone to be obsessive bean counters.

Believing There’s a Right Kind of Tribalism

Alt-FI people are very uncomfortable with tribalism. I am, for instance, a white heterosexual man with blue eyes. But my blog isn’t a financial blog for white people. Nor is it a financial blog for heterosexuals, or for men, or for people with blue eyes. My blog is for anyone trying to de-moronify his or her financial life. I tackle FI-related issues that transcend the accidents of our births.

But what if I were tribal? What if I believed there was a Caucasian way of doing personal finance that wasn’t applicable to non-Caucasians? What if I believed there was a male way of doing personal finance and put together a male-only meet-up or conference? What if I showed up to this year’s FinCon and started handing out MA$CULINI$T t-shirts? Would I be embraced by mainstream FI people? Would I be heralded by mainstream FI people for my heroic voice? Or will I get punched in the face—literally—by the SJW wing of mainstream FI?

I’m not saying, of course, that some FI-related issues don’t affect one tribe more than another. Meekness at work may affect more women than men. But meekness at work isn’t a “woman’s issue.” It’s a meek person’s issue. There are plenty of men out there who don’t stand up for themselves at work and get taken advantage of by management.

Tribalism no doubt became part of the human condition because that’s the way early humans succeeded in fostering the cooperation necessary to ward off hunger and predators. But tribalism came with some pretty nasty side-effects, especially as it related to trust and treatment. You trusted your tribe but not others. You treated members of your tribe one way but members of another tribe a different way.

Because of its nasty side-effects, tribalism is not something to trifle with. We need to look no further than our recent history to see proof of that. I was born in 1961. At that time, Jim Crow segregation was still a prime feature of the American south.

Alt-FI people thus believe you subdue the nasty side-effects of tribalism by frowning on tribalism and keeping tribalism out of the FI community. There’s no Caucasian way of doing FI, and there’s no black, gay, or woman’s way of doing FI either.

Mainstream FI people believe you subdue the nasty side-effects of tribalism by encouraging the “right kind” of tribalism in the FI community (i.e. tribalism for the tribes they like but not for the tribes they don’t like). In other words, mainstream FI people believe they can handle the explosive nature of tribalism better than other groups, countries, or civilizations. Is this hubris? I think so. But until mainstream FI people have a more humble opinion of their cognitive abilities, there will be a black, gay, and woman’s way of doing personal finance in the FI community.

Quick aside. I’m very torn by this stance. On the one hand, I abhor tribalism. I think it’s going to be the ruination of this country. But on the other hand, there are two bloggers who I truly admire and respect—hello Amy and Vicki—who do engage in tribalism. And their website, Women Who Money, is awesome. Heck, Mrs. Groovy and I have even sponsored WWM. So is tribalism based on gender okay? And if it is, can we avoid the slippery slope to full-blown tribalism, where every conceivable tribe tribals-up as a form of self-defense? Damn, this ethics stuff is hard. Hey, Amy and Vicki, can you help me out here and be a little less tribal? Can you change the name of your website to People Who Happen to Be Women and Who Happen to Money?

Believing that You Have a Constitutional Right to Live Off of Others

Alt-FI people don’t believe they have a constitutional right to live off of their fellow Americans. In other words, they don’t believe they’re entitled to “free” healthcare, “free” college, “free” daycare, or “free” anything. They understand the need for a safety net, and they welcome it. Alt-FI people just don’t believe the government should be giving a blank check to help the needy, especially when “the needy” are so often members of the middle and upper classes. Giving the government a blank check to help the needy is a recipe for destroying paycheck freedom (more about this later).

Mainstream FI people, on the other hand, want more “free” stuff, especially “free” healthcare. And they seemingly don’t have any concerns about giving the government a blank check to help the needy.

“Oh, well, the feds lowered the eligibility requirements for nutrition assistance. Now there are twice as many people entitled to SNAP and the poor taxpayers will just have to do with less. Boo hoo.”

“So what if most of what you’re taught in college is neither useful, needed, nor remembered. Every American is entitled to a college education, especially every poor American. And if that means the taxpayers take it up the wazoo, too bad. Suck it up, you greedy philistines.”

“I don’t care if we have porous borders. And I don’t care if our national debt is over $22 trillion. Every American and every person who steps foot on our soil is entitled to free healthcare. Sure there’s a possibility that ‘Medicare for all’ will overwhelm our healthcare system and bankrupt the country. But I’m willing to take that chance.”

Quick aside. Sorry for being so snarky. I never claimed that every one of my alt-FI tendencies was entirely noble. This is actually the primary reason I truly admire mainstream FI people. Mainstream FI people don’t want more government because they hate freedom or taxpayers. They want more government because they hate suffering and squalor. I would counter, of course, that more government isn’t the answer. We have more government help, subsidies, and welfare than ever before and the American people have never been more weak, helpless, and dependent. But that’s a subject for another post. The point here is that mainstream FI people are genuinely caring people and the FI community would be a soulless cult without their tender mercies. 

Believing that the FI Community’s Core Financial Tenets Always Have to Be Qualified

Alt-FI people aren’t big on “buts” or “qualifications” when it comes to making FI points. They believe that the FI community’s core financial tenets—better known as the pillars of FI—will work for every inhabitant of the United States, and it’s their job to show how they’ve used these core financial tenets to improve their respective financial lives. It’s not their job to provide a user guide for every financial tenet that is applicable to every inhabitant of the United States.

Case in point. Mr. Money Mustache’s jihad against the automobile.

Mr. Money Mustache is not a car guy. In fact, I would go so far as to say he hates cars. His anti-car bias, in turn, isn’t without cause. Cars befoul our air with a lot of nasty chemicals, and cars cost a lot of money to own and operate. In one particularly eye-opening post, our friends over at Nerdwallet estimate that a new car could easily cost $8,500 a year to own and operate when you factor in all the costs, including depreciation. Because of numbers like that, Mr. Money Mustache believes the typical American should ditch his or her “clown” car, move close to work, and use a bicycle to commute and run errands.

Now, as an alt-FI person, I don’t need Mr. Money Mustache to qualify his car position. He doesn’t have to tell me that not everyone has his “privilege” and can use a bicycle to commute about town and fetch groceries. I know his strategy for mitigating his car expenses won’t work for everybody, especially me. But his FI point about a car being a supreme drag on the typical American’s finances is beyond reproach. And since I’m a typical American, that’s all I really have to know. It’s up to me to figure out how to mitigate my car expenses given my particular circumstances.

Quick aside. I can’t mitigate my car expenses by getting rid of my car. Life without a car in rural North Carolina would be extremely difficult. So I mitigate my car expenses the millionaire-next-door way—by never buying new, never financing, and never failing to run my new-to-me car into the ground. I bought my 2004 Camry in 2008, and “Lucy,” as I call her, is still running fine at 185,000 miles. My goal is to take her to 2021 or 200,000 miles, whichever comes first. Then Mrs. Groovy and I will buy another new-to-us car that’s three to four years old—with cash.

Mainstream FI people, however, are very big on “buts” or “qualifications” when making FI points. Apparently, they have a very dim view of their readership’s critical thinking skills. And if “buts” and “qualifications” aren’t provided, they believe their readership will become confused, detached, and angered.

“Oh, man, I thought this 30-something dude and his 30-something wife were pretty cool. They blog about how they retired early. But then I found out they both had high-paying tech jobs. And they don’t have kids. They have dogs. And get this, they sold their homes and practically all their stuff, and they now live in an Airstream. But how does that help me? I don’t have a high-paying tech job. I work at 7-Eleven. And I can’t live in an Airstream. Where am I going to put all my stuff? Man, this 30-something dude and his 30-something wife turned out to be pretty bogus.”

Or maybe the “buts” and “qualifications” have nothing to do with having a dim view of their readership’s critical thinking skills and everything to do with their need to strut their moral plumage (i.e., virtue signaling)?

I’m not an X-Man, of course. I can’t read minds. So I don’t know exactly what’s driving this degree of pettiness, and it’s unfair of me to speculate. All I know is that a considerable number of mainstream FI people have a penchant for acting like bored prosecutors in a jurisdiction with little crime. And what do bored prosecutors do when there’s too little crime? They manufacture crime. “How dare you fail to inform your readers that your way of mitigating housing costs won’t work for someone who was raised by a crackhead mother, has no skills, and has no ambition beyond getting high and getting laid! How insensitive and disrespectful can you be?!!”

Other Peculiarities of Alt-FI People

As you can tell from the above belief system, alt-FI people are a weird lot. But the weirdness doesn’t end there. Here are four more beliefs that distinguish alt-FI people from mainstream FI people.

Paycheck Freedom

Alt-FI people believe that paycheck freedom is integral to freedom. In other words, if the government has an unlimited right to tax your paycheck (or income), and the government pursues this power with gusto, you cease to be free. Once the tax bite eclipses a certain mark (30 to 40 percent?), your spending decisions stop reflecting your values and priorities. Your spending decisions start reflecting the values and priorities of your new master, the government. And if your values and priorities don’t align with the government’s, too bad.

Here’s an analogy that will help drive this point home. Many people feel that women can’t be free if they don’t have reproductive freedom. And there is a lot of merit to this augment. If the government takes away reproductive freedom, women will lose a crippling amount of autonomy. One could rightfully say, then, that ending reproductive freedom is the tyrant’s way of controlling a woman’s body and crushing her autonomy.

Well, it’s the same thing when it comes to paycheck freedom. You can’t be free if you don’t have paycheck freedom. If the government helps itself to too much of your paycheck (or income), you will lose a crippling amount of autonomy. “No, Mr. or Mrs. Everyperson, you can’t save more for retirement. The federal government absolutely needs your money to maintain the hundreds of military bases it has all over the world.” Ending paycheck freedom is the tyrant’s way of controlling a citizen’s mind and crushing his or her autonomy.

In order to have paycheck freedom, you must be able to say no to the government’s taxing power at some point. The hallmark of freedom is that the government and the political majority that controls it don’t have an unlimited right to do anything. The government, for instance, can pass and enforce libel laws, but it can’t pass and enforce laws against political dissent. Free speech trumps government power. When it comes to free speech, a minority of one can tell the government to lump it.

Just where the government’s right to tax should end is hard to say. But consider this: In 2017, total personal income in the United States amounted to $16.4 trillion. Twenty-five percent of that is $4.1 trillion. That $4.1 trillion strikes me as more than enough money to surrender for civilization. If our combined governments (fed, state, and local) can’t provide for the general welfare with that amount of money, the general welfare will just have to suffer.

No one ever said freedom was going to be easy.

No Fear of Death

This might creep you out but bear with me. Alt-FI people don’t fear death. This is particularly true as it relates to healthcare.

Consider the following scenario. An alt-FI man in his 60s has a heart issue that requires surgery. But this alt-FI man doesn’t have healthcare insurance. He does have, however, $20,000 in an emergency fund.

Now let’s suppose that our sickly alt-FI man goes shopping around for heart surgeons, and the cheapest, competent heart surgeon he can find is willing to do the surgery for $30,000. And let’s further suppose that no hospital in the land is required by law to treat those without means. What happens to our sickly alt-FI man under these circumstances?

Well, if he can’t borrow $10,000, and no one is willing to gift him $10,000, and the government’s safety net can’t spare $10,000 as well, he will die.

Most mainstream FI people are probably horrified by this possible outcome. Alt-FI people aren’t. Here’s why.

  • No one’s rights are being violated. Our sickly alt-FI man isn’t entitled to money earned by others. No one was put on this planet to be any alt-FI person’s slave, and no alt-FI person was put on this planet to be anyone else’s slave. “Give me liberty, or give me death,” baby. Alt-FI people have a profound belief that justice and coercion are mutually exclusive—except for a small number of peculiar situations—and they fully accept the consequences of living their lives according to this creed.
  • Americans are the most generous people on the planet. In 2017, Americans donated $410 billion to charity. On top of this, our healthcare professionals are arguably the most dedicated in the world. Alt-FI people thus find it hard to believe that the above scenario would actually play out. To quote Brad and Jonathan from Choose FI, “the alley will provide.” Some surgeon and hospital would agree to do the surgery for $20,000 or some charitable organization or individual would step in and make up the $10,000 shortfall. The American colossus of caring would not sit idly by and allow our sickly alt-FI man and others like him to be forsaken by an inept public safety net. And speaking of an inept public safety net…
  • The government could be a better steward of the tax dollars it already receives. Imagine a program in which the government made this deal with the uninsured and the healthcare industry: If an uninsured person came up with two-thirds of the cost of a life-saving surgery, the government would cover the shortfall up to a maximum of, say, $25,000. Such a program would encourage individual savings and competition in the healthcare industry. Two good things. And the government, whether at the federal or state level, wouldn’t have to raise taxes to fund such a program. Just reducing the scope of its crony capitalism business (e.g., football stadiums, Wall Street bailouts, auto company bailouts, farm subsidies, import-export subsidies, tax credits for manufacturers, tax abatements for relocating businesses, etc., etc., etc.) would free billions. And so would reducing the American military empire. (Do we really need to defend Europe?) And so would getting out of the business of subsidizing phony-baloney bachelor degrees that cost $100,000. (Isn’t an associate’s degree enough higher education for most entry-level positions in most fields?) In short, the government is a lousy steward of the tax dollars it receives because it can get away with it. Limit its ability to tax and borrow and it, out of necessity, would do a much better job—especially when it comes to healthcare.
  • The world isn’t as third-worldy as it used to be. According to the internet (see here, here, and here), medical care is getting pretty good in countries such as Mexico, Costa Rica, Brasil, Turkey, Thailand, and India. Moreover, the cost of medical care in these countries is much more affordable than here. If push came to shove, our sickly alt-FI man could easily get his heart surgery abroad with his twenty-thousand-dollar emergency fund.

Alt-FI people don’t fear death because despite what the media and the lapdogs of big government say, the specter of untimely or unjust death is quite remote for people who 1) live in a free, first-world country and who 2) have embraced virtuous habits and attitudes. In other words, if you fix yourself and live right, you don’t need anything beyond basic government and freedom to have a long and fruitful life. The media and the lapdogs of big government use fear—be it of death or material deprivation—to get you to surrender what’s left of your freedom to the government. Alt-FI people have learned to ignore this propaganda.

Faith in Libocracy

Alt-FI people aren’t fans of democracy. Democracy is majority rule and history has proven that majorities aren’t always beacons of wisdom and virtue. The Jim Crow era is a prime example of how off the rails majorities can go.

No, alt-FI people prefer something we like to call libocracy—constitutional republicanism with limited government and checks on the majority so the inalienable rights of all are protected.

In a nutshell, libocracy is a little bit of democratic socialism (e.g., roads, courts, money, national defense, environmental laws, etc.), a little bit of socialism (schools, food stamps, Section-8 housing, Medicaid, etc.), and a whole lot of freedom. What’s the right balance between democratic socialism, socialism, and freedom? In my mind, the socialist side of this equation should get no more than 25 percent of your paycheck (or income). In other words, government at all levels combined gets 25 percent or less of your paycheck (or income), and you get 75 percent or more of your paycheck (or income).

In the end, it all comes down to faith. Do you put your faith in the government? Or do you put your faith in freedom? Alt-FI people put their faith in freedom.

Admiration and Respect for Mainstream FI People

One of my favorite ideological foes happens to be a pillar of the mainstream FI community—Matt from Optimize Your Life. And the reason why he’s one of my favorites is that when he challenges my alt-FI ideas, he does so in a very respectful manner. In other words, when he disagrees with me, he doesn’t resort to ad hominem attacks. He doesn’t say I’m wrong because I’m a “trumptard,” or a “fascist,” or a “privileged asshole.” He says I’m wrong because I overlooked a certain variable, or I failed to consider the negative side effects of my proposed solution, or I wasn’t aware of some recent study that made mincemeat out of my theory. And more often than not, his criticisms are spot on. It’s freakin’ annoying.

Quick aside. Before I published my opus, The Groovy Guide to Financial Independence, I reached out to Matt to review Chapter Ten—the chapter where I double-down on my alt-FI beliefs. I reached out to Matt because I knew my beliefs weren’t presented in a totally coherent manner—they were half-baked, if you wlll—and I knew Matt would politely but firmly point out all that was wrong with Chapter Ten. I wasn’t disappointed. Now Chapter Ten is still crap. But it’s much less crappy than it originally was. In other words, an ideological foe made me a better writer and thinker. How awesome and inspiring is that!

Matt, of course, isn’t the only mainstream FI blogger who has made me a better blogger and person. Angela, Kate, Mr. WoW, Penny, and Vicki have all set me straight in the most loving and respectful manner possible. And there are many, many more. Here are just some of the mainstream FI bloggers whose comments and writings have inspired me to be even more groovy.

Okay, enough of my ass-kissing. Here’s the bottom line: Alt-FI people admire and respect mainstream FI people. Why? Because mainstream FI people are smart, decent people who are admirably toiling away to make this country and world a better place. Just because we disagree on a few issues doesn’t mean we’re mortal enemies. It just means—haha!—that mainstream FI people are wrong on those few issues.

Do mainstream FI people feel the same way about alt-FI people? I like to think so, but I have my concerns. The SJW wing of mainstream FI strikes me as very intolerant of anyone who has strayed from off the progressive orthodoxy plantation, whether that unruly soul has strayed a little or a lot. We’ll see. If I get a lot of shit for this post from the SJW wing of mainstream FI, I’ll have my answer. I may have to hire bodyguards if I attend FinCon 2019 and leave my MAGA t-shirts at home.

Quick aside. Make sure you check out my MAGA t-shirt below. I think you’ll get a kick out of it.

The Alt-FI Manifesto

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: No one has done more than mainstream FI people to promulgate and promote the attitudes, tools, and strategies that are indispensable to fixing one’s finances and building wealth. Thanks to Brad and Jonathan from Choose FI, I like to call these attitudes, tools, and strategies the pillars of financial independence, and alt-FI people have absolutely no beef with mainstream FI people when it comes to these pillars. We’re in lockstep agreement. In fact, Alt-FI people are proud proponents of the pillars of financial independence.

So what are these awesome pillars that the mainstream FI people have bestowed upon the world? Here they are in a nutshell:

  • Spend less than your take-home pay.
  • Invest the difference between your take-home pay and expenses.
  • Be mindful of your gap—the difference between your take-home pay and your expenses. The bigger gap you have, the more you’ll have to save and invest, and the quicker you’ll obtain financial independence (or financial security, or financial solvency). You increase the gap by…
    • Reducing your expenses via…
      • Being super mindful of your spending on the big three: housing, transportation, and food.
      • Embracing minimalism or value-ism.
      • Hacking college.
      • Eliminating consumer debt.
    • And, increasing your take-home pay via…
  • Protect yourself from the unexpected. An emergency fund is your friend—it’s there whenever life takes a little nibble out of your backside. Insurance is your friend, especially healthcare insurance—it’s there whenever life takes a big, ravenous bite out of your backside. And, finally, being a nice, friendly person is a form of insurance as well. Family, friends, co-workers, and neighbors are more inclined to help the earnest and good than the prodigal and wretched.
  • Embrace the helping hand of compound interest—nothing is more conducive to building wealth than when your money is working for you (i.e., earning interest on interest). You do this by investing as much as you can as soon as you can.
  • Heed Jack Bogle. He invented low-cost, broad-based index funds. Low-cost, broad-based index funds (and ETFs), in turn, are the best way average schmoes (i.e. you and I) can access the power of compound interest and not get fleeced by the wolves of Wall Street.
  • Heed J.L. Collins. Read his investing book, The Simple Path to Wealth, and invest the way he invests. No one does a better job explaining why routinely contributing to just two low-cost, broad-based index funds—a total stock market fund and a total bond market fund—is all you need to do to become wealthy.
  • Heed Mr. Money Mustache. No one has done more to popularize the math behind financial independence. Save 25 times your annual living expenses and you’re financially independent. Increase your savings rate and the number of years you’ll need to achieve financial independence drops.
  • Do good. The reward of financial independence is that you have more opportunities to do good. And it doesn’t matter what good you choose to do. You can establish a donor-advised fund and stuff it with a quarter of a million dollars. Or you can pick up litter once a week along a nearby road or in a nearby park. The point is just to make your corner of the world a little better.

Alt-FI people do part ways with mainstream FI people when it comes to religion—civic religion, that is. Here are the main features of the alt-FI worldview:

  • Alt-FI people don’t care about diversity. The term has been weaponized by the SJW wing of mainstream FI to strut its moral plumage (i.e. virtue signaling) and harangue heretics. No, alt-FI people are color-blind, ethnicity-blind, gender-blind, sexual orientation-blind, and “whatever irrelevant trait you can think of”-blind.
  • Alt-FI people abhor tribalism, especially as it relates to race, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation. They will never thus create or maintain a blog, podcast, or YouTube channel that professes to do personal finance a woman’s way, or a Hispanic’s way, or a transgender person’s way. Doing so would be as unseemly as creating or maintaining a blog, podcast, or YouTube channel that is “of, by, and for” white, heterosexual men.
  • Alt-FI people prefer freedom to Leviathan. Something that’s immoral when done by private citizens and firms doesn’t automatically become moral when done by the government. Moreover, human beings don’t suddenly become selfless heroes when they’re employed by the government. Alt-FI people firmly believe these two axioms. That’s why they’re reflexively against increasing the power and breadth of government. Human beings are about as responsible with the levers of governmental power as frat boys are with the care of their livers.
  • Alt-FI people believe that the government doesn’t have an unlimited right to confiscate your paycheck or income. Just where the government’s right to confiscate your paycheck ends is hard to say. The Alt-FI Committee on Just Taxation is still working on its final report. But a little birdie told me that the majority report is going to come out with a number that will be a little less than 25 percent.
  • Alt-FI people believe in extreme ownership. If your financial life is in tatters, the main culprit is you. It’s not “the system,” it’s not the Republicans or the Democrats, and it’s not the “evil” one percent. And don’t give alt-FI people any guff about “400 years of oppression.” No one alive today is 400 years old, no one needs 400 years to master some worthwhile skills and attitudes, and Yes, you may have inherited some pretty dismal broken financial windows from your family and friends, but once you’re an adult the excuses got to go. No one is stopping you or anyone else from learning any worthwhile skill or adopting any worthwhile attitude.Quick aside. The original version, with allusion to “400 years of oppression,” was an admittedly ham-fisted way of saying I’m tired of all the excuses people make for not managing their lives and finances well. The point I was trying to make is that if black Americans–the most historically abused group in American history–don’t have any real obstacles beyond themselves to achieving social or financial success, then nobody in America has any real obstacles. But I neither made this point succinctly nor backed it up with evidence. Thank you Matt from Optimize Your Life for pointing out my bad blogging.

Finally, the mission of alt-FI people is simple: spread far and wide the glories of the pillars of FI, the glories of personal responsibility (PRW, baby!), the glories of limited government, and the glories of freedom.

Final Thoughts

Okay, groovy freedomist, that’s all I got. Is alt-FI a legitimate worldview and a welcome part of the FI community? Or is alt-FI the devil incarnate that must be chased out of the FI community with extreme prejudice? In other words, is it okay to punch an alt-FI person in the face? Let me know what you think when you get a chance. And if by chance you sympathize with the alt-FI movement and would like to show your support for it, I created an “Alt-FI or Die!” t-shirt that you can purchase at my Etsy store. Also, for shits and giggles, I created a “ma$culini$t” t-shirt to rattle the cage a little bit. And don’t forget my awesome MAGA t-shirt. Again, you can purchase these cage-rattling t-shirts and much more at my Etsy store. Peace.

What a great t-shirt for coming out of the closet and proudly proclaiming your allegiance to the alt-FI movement.

Hey, does anyone from the SJW wing of mainstream FI want to adorn this t-shirt at this year’s FinCon? Heck, if you’re game, I’ll even gift you the t-shirt.

And don’t forget my MAGA t-shirt. Haha! I bet you thought MAGA stood for something else.

Sorry. I just had to throw this t-shirt into the mix. Those who have read my post about what’s in store for Freedom Is Groovy in 2019 will understand it.

And don’t forget to check out my book!

124 thoughts on “The Alt-FI Manifesto”

  2. I LOVE THIS! Especially your refute with WICS 🙂 If everyone were a PRW, the world would be a better place. My mother immigrated the US a few years before I was born. She grew up very poor, but she had great work ethic and knew how important it was to save money. She passed those qualities down to me and now I’m just seven years away from retirement – by then I’ll be 38.

    My wife grew grew up poor in Cleveland to a drug-addicted mother and a father who went to prison. She joined the military and left that environment at 18. She’s now 3 classes away from an MBA and 4 years from retirement. It doesn’t matter her race…this is the environment she grew up in but she took responsibility for herself and chose to have a different life.

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  3. I am so glad you talk about the disaster of having children out of wedlock. It seems like no one else in the FI community does.

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  4. Full disclosure: as a former refugee who grew up in “squalor” (by US standards), I skew sharply libertarian. Meaning (in my case), individualist socially, moderate politically and fiscally, and conservative monetarily. There are (at least) four axes of preference here. I think the false choice of liberal/conservative is a great example of destructive tribalism.
    Which is why I’m on my way out of the developed world, entirely. This is a great party, but I’d rather leave early and avoid the (c)rush.

    Sorry for the long comment. Had to break it up into three parts to get posted.

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  5. Mencken memorably described government as a broker in pillage, and every election as an advance auction in stolen goods. Every putsch, coup and revolution mostly focused on expropriation and redistribution of means, most often of private wealth.
    Nothing has changed. The mechanics are the same, only the details and names vary.
    I think your attempts to separate money and power are admirable, but ultimately misguided and futile. Nor do I think that people will ever believe anything but what they want to believe, and especially against obvious evidence to the contrary.
    As much research has established, humans act first, then decide, then rationalize – in the order of “fire, aim, ready”.
    It’s a thoughtful post, and highly useful in its way. Sadly, human minds can only be reshaped through evolution, or via an extinction event. Which does not take away from the value of debate. Much better jaw-jaw than war-war. Or in Cicero’s formulation, much better an unjust peace, than a just war. A notion that the US abandoned long ago.

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  6. Finance, means, income and wealth (and more so, lack thereof) have always been inherently political. And therefore, the province of ideological zealotry, violence, demagoguery, virtue signaling and populist opportunism.
    If I may paraphrase Chairman Mao, finance is politics by other means (ritual), just as politics is finance by other means (force). The notion that finance and politics can be separate(d), is against all of recorded human history.

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  7. Great blog, thanks for a common sense post that hit so many great points. Apparently common sense is in very very short supply now, yeah I am talking about the left. Nuff said but this was like a breath of fresh air.

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  8. Fantastic post! I am thrilled to see so much support for the role of personal responsibility. The opposite view — that someone else is always to blame — is a bottomless pit. I want no part of that thinking, thank you very much.

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  9. First, I don’t know you and from this post, I can tell you are not someone I would enjoy spending time with, but I am going to be respectful and stick to the facts, because that’s how I roll. I also hesitate to comment because I don’t feel like your myriad of anecdotal fallacies masquerading as facts should get more attention than you are already receiving. There is so much to dissect but I’m going to focus on only a few things. 1) Since you describe yourself as an unremarkable and mediocre person, have you ever thought that just *perhaps* this country isn’t a meritocracy? Have you ever thought that just maybe the system is a bit rigged in your favor? I’m simply asking you to consider this from a different point of view. 2) NO one needs to participate in self-flagellation by acknowledging the privilege they have by being a member of a certain ethnicity. Privilege is not a bad word. I intentionally try to use my white privilege for good. My partner is a white passing male and over the past 6-7 years notices how his white male privilege works. He doesn’t feel badly about it, he just makes sure to acknowledge it and intentionally works to make sure women and people of color in his workplace are also heard, especially during meetings. 3) You call out many FI bloggers in this article, some of whom could be characterized as more progressive. This tactic appears to be a method you are using to legitimize your logically faulty manifesto. I don’t think it’s fair of your to bring other people into this dark hole you created without their permission. For example, you call out Gwen from Fiery Millenials and she asked to be removed but you leave in your commentary and judgment. You “think her reasons are wrong” but she’s a “good person so you have no problem honoring her wishes.” How about this? If someone doesn’t want to be part of something, respect it, take it out and leave out the commentary? Your approach is very disrespectful and you are acting like a bully. I don’t even think she is 30 years old and you, are past middle aged grown up man. I thought one of the basic rules of our FI community is to treat one another the way we would like to be treated. I’ll stop there.

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    1. Let me clarify that by “acknowledge”, I mean figuratively, inside our own brains realizing what is occurring and intentionally allowing other people to be part of the narrative.

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    2. Hey, wishicouldsurf. Sorry for the late reply. I’ve kind of had my hands full with Matt’s response to my manifesto. Check it out if you haven’t. Great stuff. Anyway, here’s my reply to your points.

      1) No, I don’t think the system is rigged. As long as one can control one’s appetite for stuff, and get real good at delaying gratification, one can do remarkable things with mediocre abilities and a mediocre income. I was a C student in high school and college. In 1986, I got my first real job out of college. My salary was $14K. When I finally left this job 20 years later, I was making $76K. That was a decent salary, but it was anything great on Long Island given the cost of living. In 2007, after relocating to Charlotte, NC, the prior year, I got a job making $43K a year. When I retired in 2016, I was making $63K. Sixty-three thousand was a decent salary for Charlotte, but it wasn’t anything close to a killer salary. But despite having a pedestrian income throughout my working career, I managed to go from having a negative net worth in 2002 to being financially independent in 2014. How did I do it? I got married. And Mrs. Groovy and I got our financial act together. We lived modestly and saved half of our household income. (Mrs. Groovy was making $25K a year when we got married in 2002 and $60K a year when we retired in 2016.) So aside from relocating to Charlotte in 2006, we didn’t do anything that was beyond the ken of the typical American. Here’s a little more proof that the system isn’t rigged against the mediocre. In 2018, our household income was $28,464. We just did our taxes and our federal tax on that amount of income was $95. North Carolina clipped us for $603. (We don’t itemize, by the way. We just use the standard deduction.) Throw in property taxes and sales taxes and our effective tax rate for all levels of government combined was less than 12 percent. That low-effective tax rate doesn’t suggest that the powers-to-be are hellbent on grinding down the little people.

      2) I’m not trying to be difficult or snarky, but can you give some examples of the white privilege your partner enjoys? I’m really curious. I have a different understanding of privilege. I think privilege is when the government tips the scales in favor of one group at the expense of another group. Prior to 1970, Jim Crow laws gave preferential treatment to whites. Today, affirmative action laws give preferential treatment to blacks and Hispanics. But you obviously have a different understanding of privilege, and I don’t understand that definition. Matt over at Optimise Your Life says privilege is any advantage you have that you didn’t earn. But that definition is too nebulous for my brain to grasp. I need concrete examples.

      3) This was a tough one. I reached out to Gwen to get her permission to use the picture. When all hell broke loose after the manifesto went public, Gwen emailed me and asked me to remove the picture from my post. But here’s the rub. A critical part of the manifesto referred to the picture. How do I remove the picture without saying anything? I thought removing the picture and alerting readers to why it was no longer there was a reasonable compromise. But this may have been a ham-fisted way of dealing with it. In my defense, I never had a similar quandary before.

      Thanks for stopping by, wishicouldsurf. I have no problem with you taking me to task. That’s what free speech and free inquiry are all about. I hope you come by again, and I hope it’s under less controversial circumstances. Cheers.

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      1. I’m hoping that you are trying to open your mind a little here but I feel like all you did was spout back to me a story and numbers that doesn’t even address my comment. Can you comprehend that your experience is not the same as everybody else’s? That’s called the fallacy of anecdotal evidence and the way our brains work is that we take said anecdotal evidence – or story – and think that applies to everybody. It doesn’t. 3 books in particular I would recommend – Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow, Blink, and The Black Swan. Start with Blink as it is the easiest to read. Read them all and it may help you understand that your brain is just fooling you and you have to work hard to get past the automatic assumptions and search for predictability that our brain makes. The more you exercise that muscle, the better it will get.

        My partner is a nurse and there are situations where they have to question and make suggestions with the doctors. He notices that the doctors more readily accept his recommendations but will argue with a woman’s or a person of color’s even when it is the SAME EXACT recommendation. They are all good nurses in the unit he works in – and he has had conversations with those doctors when those situations come up. There are many other examples I could give but I’ve already taken too much time writing here. In his younger years, he didn’t notice that type of stuff happening because he wasn’t aware of it and, like you, thought that acknowledging his privilege meant he had to take away from all the hard work he put in to be successful. Once he realized that the two things aren’t mutually exclusive, he became comfortable with the term and began to recognize how he gets instant credibility and others don’t.

        Again you are using one picture to make a point. The midwest in general is a less diverse population than say, Los Angeles, so of course its mostly white people. Perhaps you should look at a meeting in a more diverse area of the country? And then ALSO maybe you shouldn’t have negative commentary about Gwen and her “faulty reasoning” to not want to be involved with your stuff. You did what I call a compli-sult – “I like Gwen but basically she’s not as intelligent as I am” is what your comment is implying.

        Basically you are picking and choosing examples to support your faulty logic narrative instead of looking at the factual data.

        In your comment, you again coopted a progressive blogger to make your point that you understand what privilege means. I don’t personally know Matt from Optimize your Life but I think you need to read more and maybe understand more of what he means. I think you want to do that but you are stuck on Affirmative Action essentially giving privilege to disadvantaged groups. I don’t think you understand privilege and you use two examples that are (to use your words) “intellectually lazy”.

        Look man, if you want to open your mind, you are going to have to seek first to understand how your brain works and the limitations it has, and then also seek to understand others. Staying at home on your computer stuck in your own head and listening to folks in your own echo chamber isn’t going to open your mind. I have one last book recommendation for you: A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America by Bruce Cannon Gibney. That one is an easy read, funny and interesting.

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        1. Hey, WICS. Thanks for the reply. Here’s my reply to your reply.

          “Can you comprehend that your experience is not the same as everybody else’s?”

          Agreed. And remember that this works both ways. Your experience is not the same as everybody else’s either.

          “He notices that the doctors more readily accept his recommendations but will argue with a woman’s or a person of color’s even when it is the SAME EXACT recommendation.”

          How is this privilege? Are there workplace rules at this hospital that say doctors are to treat white male nurses respectfully and non-white and female nurses like crap?

          And this is a perfect example of why I find the mainstream FI or progressive definition of privilege so troubling. It takes everyday jerkiness or assholery and elevates it to a coordinated effort by the powerful to grind down everyone except one charmed group. Not only is this a gross exaggeration of the meaning and impact of everyday jerkiness and assholery, but it’s also a gross exaggeration that can be used by anyone.

          Case in point. Just a few weeks ago, a black female student at Yale University penned an article for the school newspaper that concluded with this diversity-loving sentence: “I’m watching you, white boy.” (The article was a call to capture dirt on white male students so that dirt could be used against them in the future.) Could you imagine the hell that would have broken out if the situation were reversed and a white male student concluded his article in the school newspaper with the sentence “I’m watching you, black girl”?

          Now, if white privilege exists at your partner’s hospital because some doctors are seemingly anti-women and anti-POC jerks, could we not say that black privilege exists at Yale because some students (the author above and the editors of the school paper) are seemingly anti-white jerks?

          Bottom line: the progressive definition of privilege isn’t only faulty, it’s also selectively applied. In effect, progressives have weaponized everyday jerkiness and assholery to shame and engender contempt for the groups they don’t like (e.g., white males, Republicans, conservatives, etc.).

          “You did what I call a compli-sult – “I like Gwen but basically she’s not as intelligent as I am” is what your comment is implying.”

          I love the word “compli-sult,” but you’re wrong to use it here. I have a history with Gwen. I’ve been on her podcast. I have commented numerous times and her website and she has commented numerous times on mine. I admire her and think she’s doing a great job championing FI ideas and representing the FI community. I just happened to be on her site and found a picture that I thought would help make my point about diversity in my manifesto. I asked for permission to use the picture and she said okay. After the post came out, she vehemently disagreed with the points I was making and asked me to remove the picture. Out of respect for her, I did. I also felt it was important to explain to my readers why the picture was removed. Did I handle this situation gracefully? Probably not. (Any tips on how I should have properly handled this situation, by the way?) All I will say is that I didn’t do anything regarding Gwen and the picture from her website with malicious intent.

          “I think you want to do that but you are stuck on Affirmative Action essentially giving privilege to disadvantaged groups.”

          I’m not stuck on Affirmative Action. I used it to explain the alt-FI meaning of privilege. To alt-FI people, privilege is government-enforced or government-sanctioned discrimination. Someone gets preferential treatment at the expense of others for arbitrary reasons. A black kid with an 1100 SAT score has a shot of getting into Harvard for academic reasons only. An Asian or white kid with an 1100 SAT score has absolutely no shot of getting into Harvard for academic reasons only. That’s discrimination, and that’s privilege—black privilege in this instance.

          Okay, WICS, I’m almost done. Before I go, though, I’ve coined some biases that I think informed most of the negative reaction to my manifesto. Here they are.

          Worst-reason bias: This is when you conjure up the worst reason someone may have for holding a particular viewpoint and assume that anyone who holds that particular viewpoint does so for the worst reason. A lot of people exhibited this after reading my manifesto. They leaped at the notion that I’m a racist. The notion that I could hold my views for noble reasons never entered their thought process.

          Progressive-stack bias: Progressives love putting people in groups. And they love putting the groups they’ve created into a stack. There are groups high in the stack such as blacks, Hispanics, women, gays, Democrats, and progressives, and there are groups low in the stack such as whites, Asians, Republicans, and conservatives. Now here’s where the fun begins. For progressives, morality means showing deference to groups high in the progressive stack and indifference or hostility to groups low in the progressive stack. This, in turn, forms the basis of the biggest crime in my manifesto. I didn’t exhibit progressive-stack bias. I had the audacity to claim that those low in the progressive stack deserved to be treated with just as much sympathy and respect as those high in the progressive stack. But more importantly, I had the audacity to challenge progressives and their heartfelt beliefs.

          Victimhood magnification bias: This is when you only see the slights and crimes perpetrated against you and people like you and are totally blind to 1) the self-sabotage you engage in, and 2) the kindness and help that others direct toward you and people like you. In other words, most people are their own worst enemy when it comes to personal finance. And for every hate crime that occurs in this country, there are a thousand love legalities. Likewise, for every example of systemic racism or sexism, there are a thousand examples of systemic kindness. This is another reason why I find the mainstream FI or progressive definition of privilege so troubling. It encourages poor people in general and poor people of color in particular to wallow in victimhood magnification bias. Not good. Anyone who is convinced that the “system is rigged” is not likely to embrace the discipline and hard work necessary to get ahead and build wealth. Check out my post on this bias for a more in-depth analysis. Here’s the link.

          Book Recommendations

          Okay, WICS, that’s all I got. Thank you for stopping by again. And thank you for the book recommendations. I’ve read “Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow” and “The Black Swan.” Haven’t read “Blink” or “A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America.” I’ve heard they’re very good and I’ll add them to my reading list. Cheers.

          Reply

          1. All, all of this. It’s just conjecture. Furthermore, I haven’t even touched on the racial overtones of this. You using the term Alt-FI is basically a dog whistle to white supremacists, whether intended or not.

            My 5th grader must provide facts to support her positions on papers she writes in school. You make statements masquerading as truth, which are merely completely uninformed opinions.

            I expect that at some point you will edit the comments to fit your narrative when people aren’t looking.

            Reply

            1. Hey, WICS. I see your point, but progressives don’t have the final say on what words mean. I have just as much right as anyone to define words and shape our language. Progressives say the “alt” abbreviation is bad. Perhaps that’s true. But I don’t care and I aim to give the “alt” abbreviation a happy face.

              Reply

              1. Words have definitions, etymology, meaning and nuance, all of which you seem to have a hard time understanding.

                Unfortunately the, in general, super nice people of the FI Community have given you confidence that you are an original thinker and what you say is important. Very few have told you that the words you write lack critical thinking and reasoning.

                I’m done here, because, like I said, the only arguments you make are only partial truths or complete misstatements masquerading as facts. I gave you multiple opportunities to debate with actual facts.

                I have a few friends who approach government, for example, in a completely different way than I do. Their facts tend to open my mind up in new ways and help me consider a different point of view than I hadn’t previously and ultimately, make me a better person.

                Reply

                1. Hey, WICS. I’m all for debate. Like you, I believe we grow when our viewpoints are challenged. But it’s hard to debate you when all you do is say I offer “partial truths” and make “complete misstatements masquerading as facts.” Now, you may be perfectly right in this assessment. All I ask is that you give me the opportunity to defend my viewpoints. Tell me what partial truths I’ve spouted and what complete misstatements I’ve made. If I can’t defend what I’ve written, I’ll gladly concede the point. Have you looked at my responses to Matt’s critique of my manifesto? On several occasions, I’ve agreed with Matt’s critique and walked back some of my positions and arguments. And I’ll have no problem doing the same for you. I don’t have an ego. I don’t care about being right. All I care about is getting it right. I hope this conversation continues. You’re obviously a smart and passionate person, and I welcome your push-back. Cheers.

                  Reply

          2. Mr. Groovy, I just wanted to step in and thank you for this thorough, well-considered response. It would have been easy to attack, but you asked genuine questions and explained your position with relevant comparisons. You’re coming at it from a neutral perspective rather than as part of one “team” or another, and that’s crucial in discussion of controversial ideas.
            The Vigilante recently posted…The Making of Capitalist Scum (from Hipsters!)My Profile

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            1. Thank you, sir! Someone gets it! All I’m doing is questioning the received wisdom in a respectful manner and the progressive wing of the FI blogosphere is carrying on as if I’m the devil incarnate. Sad. Where’s progressive tolerance when you need it?

              Reply

  10. Thanks for the well-written and well thought-out article. It was a long read, but I enjoyed it and couldn’t agree more with the message. As the child of immigrants who came to this country with nothing, my parents modeled grit, fiscal discipline, strong work ethic and stoicism. They never complained about their situation, or about being poor, or about racial discrimination. They just worked (a lot), saved consistently, and never went into debt other than the mortgage which is now paid off. They did the best they could with what they had and served as excellent role models for me. It worked as I have hit FI and am also debt-free aside from a small mortgage.

    From my perspective, overcoming the hardships: financial, racial and otherwise, only made us stronger and the FI that much sweeter. I wholeheartedly believe in personal responsibility, exercising discipline in the areas where you can control, keeping your head down and charging ahead.

    Reply

    1. “As the child of immigrants who came to this country with nothing, my parents modeled grit, fiscal discipline, strong work ethic, and stoicism.”

      A-f%#king-men! At my last job, I had a co-worker who was Vietnamese-American. Her parents were Boat People who escaped Vietnam after the fall of Saigon. Her parents settled in Houston and they never had more than menial or low-paying jobs. But they worked hard and taught their four daughters the same grit, discipline, work ethic, and stoicism that your parents taught you. The results? All four daughters graduated from college with STEM degrees and are living the American dream today. This Vietnamese family thus went from “underprivileged” to “privileged” in one generation! One freakin’ generation! No one is stopping anyone in this country from working hard, saving money, and doing something worthwhile with his or her life. For the vast majority of “underprivileged” people in this country, the only thing that’s holding them back is their victim mentality. Thank you for your comment, my friend. It made my day. Cheers.

      Reply

  11. I loved the thoughtful post. As someone who works in healthcare it is definitely a broken system. I struggle to think that free healthcare is a human right. There are so many people without means but also those who continue to abuse their body and expect a government bailout to keep paying for their bad decisions. I loved the example of someone who didn’t have the money for a costly procedure. At what point do we draw the line and say “no” to a 90 year getting a new hip or having open heart surgery. This is an extreme example but makes you wonder how any limits would be applied to a new, more thoughtful system. Life at any cost can’t be sustainable. Many healthcare expenses are incurred in the final years of life.

    I hope to live a full life and be accepting of death, whenever is comes.

    There truly isn’t a clear cut answer to these questions, but I appreciate the comments and willingness to post.

    Reply

    1. “Life at any cost can’t be sustainable. Many healthcare expenses are incurred in the final years of life.”

      Agreed. If we make healthcare a right, we will become slaves to the healthcare industrial complex. But here’s the rub. Choosing freedom will necessarily mean people dying sooner than medical technology allows. And many Americans can’t stomach that. I can. But I’m a freedom-loving nut. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. Very thoughtful comment. Cheers.

      Reply

      1. This is a point I have been making for years. No one wants to own up to the fact that we can’t afford ALL the health care for ALL the people. I think a 2-tier system is evolving. And more and more older people are realizing that you can’t live forever.

        It’s the internet. I just wanted to spout off like everyone else.

        Reply

    1. LOL! Touché, my friend. Yeah, maybe an alleged personal finance blog should stick to personal finance. Best comment of them all. Cheers.

      Reply

  13. You are like a wrecking ball, Mr. G! This is definitely what free speech is all about. Okay, now I have an innocent crush on you, Mr. G. You have some big kahunas to post such a controversial post.

    Thanks for the shout out, BTW.

    So I relate to a lot of this alt-FI stuff but I do participate in tribalism (I think). I hang with a lot of women and that really started in recovery because it’s recommended that the ladies stick with the ladies and the men with the men. The reason is really rather obvious because early in sobriety, no one has any business dating until they sort out their crap. Additionally, I gear a lot of my writing to the ladies but that doesn’t mean I don’t love the men.

    Anywho, it seems you stirred up the pot and after reading your dissertation, it’s easy to get caught up in the comments, but I’m walking away.

    Peace, brother.
    Deanna recently posted…For All the Middle Age Women Reinventing ThemselvesMy Profile

    Reply

    1. “The reason is really rather obvious because early in sobriety, no one has any business dating until they sort out their crap.”

      Thank you, Deana. This is a good reminder that tribalism isn’t all bad. When used prudently, it can be a great asset. When it’s used imprudently–to divide and single out another tribe for mistreatment–it’s a great scourge. It’s conversations like this that helps us to do tribalism right. Great freakin’ comment.

      Sincerely,

      The Wrecking Ball of the FI Community

      Reply

  14. I’m a Gen X white male who leans left and votes D but I if I hear one more millennial apologize to for their “privilege” I’m gonna pull my hair out.

    The political correctness has gotten completely out of hand in the Fi space and in society in general.

    Reply

    1. I think there are many similarly left-leaning individuals who would agree with you wholeheartedly. They’re just drowned out by loud, angry voices guided by that anger rather than rational thought.

      There’s nothing wrong with holding liberal views – hell, I’m about as socially liberal as humanly possible – but some of the most vocal groups on the left are so far gone as to not even recognize how far gone they are. They don’t realize that their own political group is populated mostly by people who look at them and go “Well, at least I’m not THAT crazy.”

      It’s the left’s identity problem. It’s easy to marginalize crazies on the right – they are basically overt racists, violently anarchist, or too busy in their doomsday shelters to be heard at all. But it’s not easy to separate crazy left from normal left, because there isn’t a clear line of demarcation. There’s no moment when you can conclusively say someone has gone too far left. Sometimes, you know it when you see it, but that’s not a very good rule of thumb.
      The Vigilante recently posted…The Making of Capitalist Scum (from Hipsters!)My Profile

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    2. Yeah, it does strike me as a demeaning exercise. But there’s a lot of guilt-ridden souls out there, and self-flagellation helps them cope with their success. We’re a very strange species. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. It’s nice to hear that someone from the left is even getting sick of all the “I’m privileged” mea culpas being bandied about in our community now. Cheers.

      Reply

  15. I don’t know what to say. At times rambling, at times poetic, this manifesto could have been a gentle introduction into a bit of a more open-minded way of thinking for much of my twitter feed.

    Alas, this is the same twitter feed from which I learned that a dangerously offensive manifesto had been published at a blog that shan’t be named.
    The Vigilante recently posted…The Making of Capitalist Scum (from Hipsters!)My Profile

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    1. Hey, IV. Never underestimate the wrath of a triggered SJW. I poked the hornet’s nest on this one. But it’s all good. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. Peace.

      Reply

  16. I think it was said a couple times within the comments, but I believe the FI part of the post was really shoehorned in there. You are just blogging and following people on twitter that has a ton of victim mentalities within it.

    Obviously it isn’t their fault they are in a shit ton of debt! It’s the guberment needs to fix it.

    I have been blogging and in this space (in a very, very tiny way) for about 10 years and it has always been like that.

    Notwithstanding, removing the alt-fi references and I LOVE the thoughts expressed. Fuck all that white privilege crap going around.
    Evan @ MyJourneytoMillions recently posted…Learning the Iron Condor Option StrategyMy Profile

    Reply

    1. “Obviously it isn’t their fault they are in a shit ton of debt! It’s the guberment needs to fix it.”

      Thank you, Evan. I think you nailed a big part of the problem. It’s hard to be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt and see big banks and corporations get bailouts and tax loopholes. Crony capitalism begets a crony socialist mindset.

      And I hear ya about the “white privilege” nonsense. It’s one thing to use the concept of “privilege” to make us more thoughtful, and it’s another thing to use the concept of “privilege” to shame and cut off debate. And, sadly, the latter concept of privilege is used a lot against males and whites. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. Cheers.

      Reply

  17. Many interesting points raised here but 90% of it has got nothing to do with FI.

    Maybe the post should have just been called “Here are my personal political views?”

    The only point I could really relate to being directly to FI was the bit about “Believing that the FI Community’s Core Financial Tenets Always Have to Be Qualified”

    I completely disagree with this point 🙂

    You use MMM’s car stance as an example but who exactly is rallying against that? MMM is one of the most mainstream FI bloggers out there (by page views at least)

    The people going against him are actually a minority of commenters or just “normal” people who aren’t actually members of the FI community… by definition neither of those groups of people can be classed as “Mainstream-FI” – they are either Minority of FI people, or just plain Mainstream.

    FI has had far more mainstream media focus in recent years so maybe that is where you are focusing your attention on with this part of the post. Or maybe I am in a bubble and don’t read any of the “mainstream-FI” blogs you do, I’m not really sure.

    The rest of the post though was interesting and thought provoking, so thanks.

    One thing which seems obvious to me is that you can acknowledge your privilege and luck in your life while not discounting the hard work you’ve put in to get where you have, those two things are not mutually exclusive.

    Cheers!
    theFIREstarter recently posted…october income / expenses report – stocky horror showMy Profile

    Reply

    1. “Many interesting points raised here but 90% of it has got nothing to do with FI.”

      Guilty as charged, my friend. But the reason I wrote this post is that I see too many progressive nostrums creeping into the mainstream FI community and I wanted to challenge those nostrums. I really think those nostrums are making the FI community worse. We’re becoming too intolerant of different views and too intellectually flabby. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. I really appreciate what you had to say. Cheers.

      Reply

  18. Excellent post! I would love to see the alt fi movement blow up but there is slim chance of it as many of the bloggers/podcaster are far left and don’t try to hide it. I imagine they will ignore this excellent post rather than discuss it. This is one of the best blog post to come out in a long time. Its nice to hear both sides on this important topic.

    Obamacare is not going away much like none of the new deal programs such as social security and medicaid/medicare, food stamps, etc. will never go away. The government so far has only been able to give but has never taken away. The only way it changes is if the system gets overwhelmed with more people taking out than puts in. Even then I think they will just continue to raise taxes, sadly. A book that helped me was “Enjoy the Decline” by Aaron Clarey. I think many in the Alt FI would find it helpful.

    Thanks for freely expressing your opinion on these topics and for giving others the ability to express theirs. Looking forward to your upcoming Obamacare experience post.

    Reply

    1. “Obamacare is not going away much like none of the new deal programs such as social security and medicaid/medicare, food stamps, etc. will never go away.”

      Agreed. We don’t teach freedom anymore in our schools, and we don’t champion freedom anymore in our politics and culture. It’s all about grievances and government handouts. I fail to see how this will end well, but you never know. The cool people may be right. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. Cheers.

      Reply

  19. WOW! I loved this article. I also enjoyed the gracious side. You see others and their stance and appreciate it even if you disagree. We need more of this type of understanding in America!! Stand on something, but be willing to discuss it. Thank you for this rant – it is great.
    Bonnie recently posted…Wild and Remote South GeorgiaMy Profile

    Reply

    1. “Stand on something, but be willing to discuss it.”

      Thank you, Bonnie. This is what it’s all about. I have some problems with mainstream FI thought. I think their obsession with diversity is misplaced, I think their definition of privilege is faulty, and I think they’re playing with fire when it comes to tribalism. So I stated why I thought so. And if I’m wrong, I want to be told. But rather than confront me like Mr. WoW and Angela did in this comment section, a lot of mainstream FIers responded with ad hominem attacks on Twitter. “Groovy Man bad!” And the truly sad part is if they explain why any of my opinions are wrong, I’ll change my opinion. As always, my objective is to “get it right,” not to “be right.” Sigh. Why do people get so bent out of shape when someone disagrees with them? We’re a very strange species. Thanks for stopping by, Bonnie. I really appreciate what you had to say. Cheers.

      Reply

  20. Dang! How long did this rant take to write?!

    I know as an Asian person in America, there are only 5.6% of us. As a result, the odds are highly stacked against us to succeed at anything.

    For example, I know that despite starting Financial Samurai in 2009 and focusing on financial independence with the tag line, “Achieving Financial Freedom Sooner, Rather Than Later,” I’ll never be included in the main stream FIRE movement, be it a documentary, podcast interview, guest post, inclusion in a book, or whatever.

    But that’s something I’ve accepted as an Asian person. I think it’s a fun challenge and much more satisfying to try and go against the odds and succeed.

    Financial Samurai will always be a small site that’s not part of the mainstream, and that’s cool. Being happy with what we have and doing our best is what really matters.

    PS: how cool is it that Ivy league schools and other elite schools create a higher standard for Asians to get in? I’m feeling smarter already!

    Sam
    Financial Samurai recently posted…Average Consumer Expenditure Per Year Proves Americans Are Living The DreamMy Profile

    Reply

    1. “I’ll never be included in the main stream FIRE movement,” … “But that’s something I’ve accepted as an Asian person”

      You are running a website with no personal pictures of yourself on it (that I’ve ever seen at least, I have been checking in on and off for at least 5 years) – I didn’t even realise you were Asian until I just read that, so you can’t mention it that often.

      In any case, you are also very successful in terms of page views, compared to most PF/FI blogs (Alexa rank currently below 50,000 – that’s pretty good by anyones book!)

      I think if there is any reason you never got accepted into the mainstream FI community (which is a debatable statement anyway) it’s because you had a pretty 1%-er style route to FI – ridiculously high earnings etc, and often post things like how 5 million is not enough to retire on. Funnily enough these sort of topics are hard for the mainstream to relate to.

      Hope this helps 😉
      theFIREstarter recently posted…october income / expenses report – stocky horror showMy Profile

      Reply

      1. Interesting feedback! Given my site’s name is Financial Samurai, I was thinking more readers would have a default assumption that I was Asian. So perhaps it’s just a cool name with no ethnic or racial association.

        I probably have to write more about my middle class upbringing living in a small townhouse, parents driving a beater w/out even hubcaps, going to public schools, living in a studio with my buddy after college for a couple years etc to connect with more people.

        A lot of folks, as mentioned in this article, are really good at crafting the underdog story and writing about things that are easier to do.

        Time to get to work!

        Reply

        1. Thanks for taking my comment in good spirits FS, I just read it back and it came across a bit snarky, apologies if so!

          Yeah I always just thought it was a cool name and never thought any more of it… Haha! Maybe I am just weird though.

          It is always good to hear someones full back story so if you’ve not written about that stuff already then I’m sure your readers would like to hear it, I know I would.

          Cheers 🙂
          theFIREstarter recently posted…october income / expenses report – stocky horror showMy Profile

          Reply

          1. You’re British or from Europe though right? If so, I give British people a pass on snarkiness because it is a part of their culture.

            Whoo hoo!

            For some reason, I’m not easily offended. The only time I usually do is when there is no back up to an opinion. Then I just feel like my time is wasted.

            Reply

            1. Yeah, the Brits can sound a little snarky, but that’s largely because they speak (and write) English so well. Our American ears aren’t used to such felicity.

              Reply

        2. LOL! The FI community definitely loves the underdog. That is surely a good thing. But this bias has a significant shortcoming as well. The Haves have great lessons to teach too, and if you only gravitate to the underdogs, you lose out on a lot of wisdom.

          Reply

      2. This is precisely one of my beefs with mainstream FI. Too many mainstream FIers think that someone with a low income can’t take the lessons of high-income bloggers and apply those lessons to their low-income circumstances. But I categorically reject this notion. I’ve never come away from Sam’s blog or PoF’s blog without having new ideas on how to improve my finances. I just have fewer zeros to play with, that’s all.

        Reply

        1. I totally agree with that, MMM situation is nothing like mine and neither was ERE but I’ve learnt more from those 2 blogs than all the others combined.

          But everyone’s time is finite, and if they only have time to read a few blogs to they are far more likely to read one’s where they can directly relate to the writers experience and the tips and tricks shared are directly applicable to their life, you can’t really blame them for that.

          This thread has exploded I see, very exciting 🙂

          To to confirm I am British but also was having a bit of a grumpy day so snarkiness was in overdrive… haha. Apologies again and great discussion by all.
          theFIREstarter recently posted…october income / expenses report – stocky horror showMy Profile

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    2. I don’t know your experience with the FIRE movement directly, but I can say you are the one that got me into FIRE. It is because of you I’ve become a fanatic about posting 3x per week and spending 20-30 hours per week on my blog outside of my full-time job (being married with two kids). 🙂 I love your writing and from what I can tell, your site is doing amazingly well. Don’t get discouraged!

      I’ve known for a while that you are Asian from what you have mentioned in your posts. But that hasn’t bothered me one bit. I could care less what race you are because you are an excellent writer and I can relate to a high degree with your content.
      Chris Roane recently posted…Stop Being a Cheap Ass: Spend Money on Your Blog!My Profile

      Reply

      1. Hi Chris – Glad being Asian doesn’t bother you! lol.

        Blogging is great b/c it’s as close to a meritocracy as I’ve found. If you work harder, are more entertaining, more creative etc, you’ll likely do better.

        Blogging doesn’t care what race or sex you are because the search engines are mostly race and sex blind.

        But what does make blogging fun is the cliques and echo chambers that form. It’s the same people over and over again who win awards, get highlighted, get interviewed etc.

        I encourage folks to do things a little differently. Good things tend to happen!

        Sam
        Financial Samurai recently posted…Three Favorite Ways To Earn Money And Pay Less TaxesMy Profile

        Reply

        1. “It’s the same people over and over again who win awards, get highlighted, get interviewed etc.”

          So true, my friend. This is one of the reasons I wrote the above post. I’m tired of the groupthink and clickiness and I wanted to challenge it.

          Reply

      2. “I could care less what race you are because you are an excellent writer and I can relate to a high degree with your content.”

        Amen, brother.

        Reply

    3. You’re a small blog?!? I thought you were way famous!
      Mine must be microbial then… lol.
      I like your last comment a lot. I think it’s true that blogging is a meritocracy – though having said that, some people are far better than others at marketing their sites. But then again, I guess their success is a reward for utilising a particular skill set.
      It’s all in how you look at it. 🙂

      Reply

        1. That’s the spirit. Keep giving them hell.

          P.S. Since you’ve been blogging since 2009, aren’t you at least deserving of “a lifetime achievement” award?

          Reply

          1. No. If I have learned anything from your post, it’s that I will only win an American award if I’m white or on the panel of judges.

            But, I was thinking I could create my own award and give it to myself? Or, I can move to Asian. Who’s stopping me.

            The Financial Samurai Lifetime Achievement Award goes to…. Sam from Financial Samurai! 🙂

            After my 10 year anniversary this July 2019, I think I’m ride off into the sunset and truly enjoy early retirement life.

            Reply

            1. Strange, isn’t it? The diversity mongers see no reason to recognize a giant in our blogging space who happens to be Asian. I wonder why? Anyway, Mrs. Groovy and I promised ourselves that we would blog for five years. So I got a year and a half before I ride off into the sunset. I sincerely hope you don’t quit at your 10-year mark. Our lame blog won’t be missed. But your’s will. Cheers.

              Reply

              1. Come on. Definitely not a giant. Perhaps a tiny hummingbird hovering on the outside looking in. Giants wouldn’t have time to comment on posts, especially if they haven’t been highlighted.

                But maybe there is a parallel to Asians and college admittance?

                Why are the academic standards higher for Asians to get into certain private schools? Are Asians not considered a minority who face minority-related issues as well in America?

                Such a conundrum. Best to take matters into your own hands and run your own business. This is one of the main reasons why there are so many Asian small business owners in America.

                If nobody is going to give you a helping hand, you have to give yourself and your family one.
                Financial Samurai recently posted…Is It Worth Having A High Deductible Health Plan To Be Eligible For A Health Savings Account?My Profile

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                1. “Why are the academic standards higher for Asians to get into certain private schools? Are Asians not considered a minority who face minority-related issues as well in America?”

                  Excellent questions, my friend. I’m a freedomist, so how Asians are treated by our elite schools really pisses me off. Why should it matter if Asians are extremely “over-represented” in the Ivy League? No one seems to mind that blacks are “over-represented” in the NFL and NBA. I don’t get it, especially given the supposed danger of climate change. Don’t we want our most accomplished students working on the engineering that’s needed if green energy is ever going to supplant fossil fuel energy?

                  This is one of the reasons why I wanted to challenge the prevailing orthodoxy when it comes to “privilege.” Why do some groups rise above the affronts and crimes committed against them and other groups don’t? When should people get a pass on accountability because of their upbringing? A white co-worker of mine was raised in Jamaica, Queens, and he was only one of three whites in his entire high school. Every day at school he was treated to anti-white slurs. And every week he had at least one fight. And, yet, despite all this, he didn’t harbor any anti-black feelings and he was one of the hardest workers I knew. But let’s say he wasn’t so cool. Would anyone give him a pass if he wanted nothing to do with black people and was a crappy worker?

                  I, of course, could continue. But I’ve rambled on enough. Let’s just say I see some inconsistencies in the meaning and application of “diversity” and “privilege.”

                  Always appreciate your thoughts, Sam. And I don’t care what you think about your position in the FI space. You’re a giant as far as I’m concerned. Peace.

                  Reply

                  1. I have yet to read a cogent argument as to why we have affirmative action for African Americans and Hispanics but not for Asians.

                    How do we decide which minority is worth helping more?

                    Shouldn’t we help the smallest minorities as a percentage in America?

                    The double standard is BS, and the Asian minority screws up the alt-left agenda majorly.

                    Reply

                    1. Amen, brother. At Caltech, 43% of the student body is Asian. But at our Ivy League colleges, Asians make up 18% or so of the student body. Why? Is it because Caltech by law can’t discriminate based on race or ethnicity and our Ivies can? The double standard is bullshit. If other races and ethnic groups don’t like that Asians are “over-represented” in our elite colleges, they can stop farting around and start studying. Love the cut of your jib, my friend. Cheers.

      2. Don’t feel bad. Most of us in this space are microbial–especially compared to Sam, Mr. Money Mustache, J.L. Collins, and other such FI luminaries.

        Reply

    4. “For example, I know that despite starting Financial Samurai in 2009 and focusing on financial independence with the tag line, “Achieving Financial Freedom Sooner, Rather Than Later,” I’ll never be included in the main stream FIRE movement, be it a documentary, podcast interview, guest post, inclusion in a book, or whatever.”

      That’s very interesting. I’ve always considered you one of the top dogs in this show. I don’t think it’s because of anti-Asian bias. It may have to do that you blog from a high-income perspective and that perspective doesn’t have the same cachet as blogging from a middle- to low-income perspective. Or it may be that the FI community is too clicky and you’re just not one of the cool kids. Hey, if it’s any consolation, I’m not getting any awards anytime soon. Because of this post, the cool kids think I’m very icky. Oh, well. Such is life. Thanks for stopping by, my friend.

      Reply

      1. I wholeheartedly disagree with Financial Samurai’s point. That young Asian couple that worked in the tech world and retired in their late 20’s and is slow traveling around the world has been interviewed and featured on a bunch of Fi podcasts. Paula Pant was born in Nepal and is one of the most popular bloggers/podcasters in the space. ChooseFi has has interviewed many Minority guests.

        If Financial Samurai isn’t getting attention in the Fi space it certainly isn’t because he’s Asian.

        Reply

        1. Uh, you point out two examples of Asian minorities in a sea of THOUSANDS of financial independence blogs.

          And the Asian couple is from Canada, not America. Two different countries my man.

          Paula is part of the clique and FIRE echo chamber. She is great at self promotion/flagellation with all her selfies. Podcast is fine, but definitely not considered Asian.

          Are you sure she’s considered a minority based on who she lives with, hangs out with, and where she lives/has lived? If she is Asian, she sure doesn’t discuss Asian issues, doesn’t discuss racism, doesn’t talk much about her culture, doesn’t stand up for Asians, or have Asians on her podcast. That’s fine, but don’t kid yourself that she is Asian or is accepted by the Asian community.

          Finally, you highlight two white guys from Virginia as examples of Asians with ChooseFI? Just because they have interviewed some minorities before means what? Who exactly have they interviewed in the Asian community? Probably Paula, who some don’t consider Asian and probably the Canadians Asian couple because they are all part of the same echo chamber. But that’s cool.

          The ChooseFI guys are nice guys. Just don’t use them as an example as minorities or supporting Asians and other minorities. Come on now.

          Reply

  21. Wow, epic rant! I lean toward mainstream FI than alt-FI, but I like some of the ideas too. Personal responsibility is the main one. You really can’t depend on other people for help.

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    1. I love it, Joe. I really think alt-FI and mainstream FI agree on 90 percent of things. We mainly differ in the definition of privilege and the desired amount of government. Nothing to get hung about. No reason why we can’t discuss an issue and then have a few beers. Thanks for stopping by, my friend.

      Reply

  22. Man… Lot going on in this post. Thanks for the shoutout by the way. 🙂
    I agree with a lot of the Wow’s comments along with others and don’t know that I have more to add. I like their take on the racist issue using the deer and fish example.
    I was raised in a racist family and while they wouldn’t see it that way, it was. Which was weird because we had black friends, they came over a lot, were part of the family, yet racist jokes and sentiment abounded. Weird, but that’s the south for you.
    It wasn’t until highschool that I realized I only had those thoughts because that’s how I was raised, not because I had any reason to feel that way. It took a LOT of mindfulness and hard work to change that habit, but like any habit and mindset, it can be changed.
    Look at me, I did it and this was from a guy who drove a truck in highschool with a confederate flag license plate on it… Cringe… I know, I know… The point is, no I wouldn’t give that guy a pass, because I literally know he can change it if he wants too.
    Comparing that to someone growing up with similar broken views on finances, well, that’s a stretch but I get what you’re going for. Also like our white supremacist I too was raised in a house with the financial sense that God gave a turtle. We lived paycheck to paycheck and I remember being stressed over money at a young age -7/8 yrs old.
    Mainly due to the times we’d turn the switch and the lights wouldn’t come on, or when the water wouldn’t come out of the faucet. Yay for woodstove heat, they can’t turn that off, lol. It reminded me of a scene from Roseanne, where they tried to come up with extra money. One of the tactics was sending checks in to pay the bills and “forgetting” to sign them. Yep, we played that game in my house a lot. “Which bill is about to get turned off? let’s pay that first, and go to the next crisis.” It also wasn’t uncommon to only have $5 or so to last until payday, like literally $5 and nothing in emergency funds, or checking or cash. Emergency funds, a laughable concept back then.
    Much like my views on racism changed, my PF views also change and only cemented my idea that
    1) I didn’t want to live like this and
    2) Success for me would mean getting to a point in life that I didn’t have to worry about money.
    I don’t give a free pass to the financial moron either because he/she can remain ok with their situation and stop bitching to me about it, or look to help themselves. Even in my depression group therapy when finances come up, I’ve heard Dave Ramsey mentioned/recommended a couple of times. These women don’t lament that they don’t have an extra $250 to get a divorce, or an extra $40 for something needed but not necessary, they found someone to help them budget and attack their debt and change their mindset on money. As one woman put it, until then we were paycheck to paycheck, but now we have a little extra money and emergency savings and are over halfway paying off our debt. If they can do it, anyone can. I also second any Dave Ramsey talk when it comes up in that setting because I believe it’s a good recommendation and good for anyone in that financial situation. Do I like him, no, but I don’t have to if he helps people and if we’re all here to help people, who cares if it’s not all recommendaitons of “live off $26k/yr and retire before 40 or you’re a finacial moron”. Also, if I can go from financial illiterate to learing all this PF, investing, retirement, Lifestyle Change stuff on my own, then no, the financial moron gets no pass in my book either.
    Call me Gandalf, “None shall Pass!” lol
    I’ll stop there with the laboriously long comment, but it is an interesting take on the PF community and it has changed and morphed even from 4 yrs ago when I joined it. Without someone around stirring the pot and kicking a few hornets nests it too would get old and stale.

    One last thing about tribalism. Whe I first went to Fincon inD allas, I wrote that I found my tribe in the blog post after that. And I did find my tribe. BUT, my tribe is other people I can talk money, investing, 401k’s, withdrawal strategies, healthcare strategies, and more about. I don’t give a flying flip if they’re white, hispanic, asian, male, female, trans, cis, queer, whatever… Like Men At Work, I said, “Do you speak-a my language?” and they didn’t give me a veggiemite sandwich but, yes, yes, they did speak my language. And I love that I ahve people I can talk to that speak that language. That in itself is a tribe of its own.
    That’s a HUGE reason I go to weekly depression bipolar group meetings. Holy sh!t, it’s the another tribe that speaks my language. I can be me and tlak about my anxiety, depression, restlessness, suicidal thoughts and ideations and all the stress surrounding those things and these people get it. They nod, offer own stories of similar thoughts, actions, etc.. and ways to get better. Now that I’m in a better space mentally, I can give back doing the same for new people and old group attendees alike.
    Isn’t that what we’re all supposed to be here for in the PF space? Learning for ourselves, growing and bettering ourselves, and giving back by showing the people that were in our same financially illiterate position, that they too can get over the hump and find their own firm PF footing?
    If it’s in a tribe of PF people sure. And if some of them want to break off and have a women only spot like Lola Retreat, hell to the yeah! I’ve recommended it to evey female friend that has a faint interest in money. Much like I recommend Spa Girl triathlons to any female that feels intimidated with triathlons. “Go, start here, it’s all women, very accepting, no BS, well, so much less BS, start there, then branch out”. It’s great for people to have a safe place to get started with this and not feel intimidated and if that tribe is needed in the PF community go for it.
    And having the safe place or similar perspective means a different smaller tribe needs to start in the PF tribe, yeah, go do it, and make as many of those safe spaces for whomever you need. What do I care? How will having more than 1 PF tribe hurt me as a person, or blogger? It won’t that I’m aware.

    Okay, now, I’ll stop the comment, lol. Lot of thought provoking stuff in here. I’ll be curious to see all of next week’s rebuttal posts across the PF blogosphere, lol.
    Mr. SSC recently posted…Time Can Rack up Debts, Just Like MoneyMy Profile

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    1. Very interesting you grew up as a racist in a racist family!

      What were some racists things you did growing up and still think about as an adult?

      I’ve argue that people are a product of their time and their surroundings and it’s HARD to change one’s DNA.

      But recognizing you grew up racist is a great first step.

      I’m wondering, do you think I should raise my son in a more racist environment to make him stronger and more aware of the real world?

      I feel that growing up in Virginia and southern Virginia and encountering so much racism helped give me a lot of motivation to work hard and courage to fight back physically and mentally against my oppressors.

      I think without racism, I don’t think I would have achieved financial freedom as quickly, so thank you!

      I think you’ll enjoy the post linked in the Website field and would love to hear your thoughts.

      Thanks,

      Sam
      Financial Samurai recently posted…Average Consumer Expenditure Per Year Proves Americans Are Living The DreamMy Profile

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      1. “I’ve argue that people are a product of their time and their surroundings and it’s HARD to change one’s DNA” — I would agree people are a product of time and surroundings, but I’d also say that you can change your mindset and attitude from being raised a certain way. Yes, it was hard and took years before I quit having those thoughts pop into my head, but it’s doable. It’s very, very, very doable.

        Being Racist or Bigoted is NOT in anyone’s DNA. That’s not one of those things that people say “well, I was just born to hate people of a certain color, or people of a color that wasn’t mine…” and then scientists look up from their clipboards and microscopes and say, “Oh, indeed! He IS racist, he’s got “the gene”!! I can see it right here. Let’s give him and his offspring a pass. It’s their DNA.” That doesn’t happen like that.
        By racist, I mean my parents would make racial slurs, promote incorrect stereotypes and tell racist jokes. We weren’t card carrying Klansmen or anything. We were the people that perpetuate intolerance and bigotry due to being angry we were poor and wanted to be mad at anyone but ourselves.
        Actually, I don’t know why my parents were racist except for 1 being raised in Eastern KY in a very racist town and setting, and the other had parents with similar “I’m not racist, but really I’m racist” take on life. So, again, product of their environment and nothing in their mindset to want to change it.

        I realized I needed to think differently when one of our close friends (black) had a cross burned in their yard and it fell over and burned up 1/3 of their soybean crop that year. It made me think that these are the nicest people I’ve met, never had a bad word to say against anyone, and would help anyone in need. Because of something as dumb as skin color, they get targeted and lose a third of their income that year?! That’s fucking idiotic… This was in 1993, so not that long ago, ffs. This was the kid that got dropped off at our house at 5am every schoolday so we could give him a ride to school, since we all went to city school but lived in the county.

        That was when I knew I needed to change my mindset because I had no reason to think/feel the way I did other than I was raised with it around me and thought that meant it was okay. It wasn’t. For me it started by not saying anything out loud that was racist or intolerant or any of that ignorant shit I used to do. After that got habit to not say anything, then the hard part was getting my brain to not think like that as a default. That took years…

        The most racist thing I did was use racial slurs when we would get in fights as kids. It was the equivalent of grabbing a handful of sand/dirt and throwing it in someones’ eyes during a fight. Last resort, low blow when you got nothing else. I’d tell jokes and other ignorant stuff like that, but it’s all stemmed from being raised in an ignorant environment when it comes to being open and accepting. Which was ironic because we were raised Baptist and Jesus saves and love thy neighbor (as long as they’re white) and all that and my experience was that they (the people I was around most in the many churches I was around) were the most intolerant people I’d met.
        I did get invited to join the local Klan chapter when some of my “friends” that went to county schools joined but I declined. Again, this was 1992, so not that long ago…

        As far as racist thoughts as an adult for me. They’re non-existent. It’s been 20+ yrs since I began that journey and am doing my part to raise our kids with tolerance and acceptance of whomever they run into in life.

        “I’m wondering, do you think I should raise my son in a more racist environment to make him stronger and more aware of the real world?” — Take this how you want, but this is the dumbest thing I have read so far… I hope to god you’re being sarcastic or trolling because that is just absurd. If you want to go that route, why not download an ACE checklist and make sure he gets a score of at least 5. Research has shown that kids’ skills and progress is severely impaired with ACE scores at 4, but above 4 there is a bounce back, i.e. resilience. They can’t explain it, but that’s the main theory.
        I think without growing up very poor in a house living paycheck to paycheck helped set me on my path. I think being told by teachers that I’d never make anything of myself set me on my path. I think that being caught with pot my senior yr of highschool and having to go to “the dirty school” for 90 days set me on my path. I think fending for myself financially and otherwise at age 17 set me on my path. Do I think racism played a part in it? Only by helping me realize the world has enough assholes trying to keep people down and it doesn’t need 1 more of them. Also, if I didn’t like being teased or made fun of because I was a runt and my voice was high and my name rhymes with gay (oh that was a treat), how is me doing that to someone else because of skin color, any different?
        So, NO. Don’t raise your kid around racism just to toughen them up. there are plenty of assholes around that will do that because they like Pokemon, or don’t like pokemon, or have black hair and not blond hair, or blue eyes and not brown eyes or they hold their pencil weird or any other things kids find to pick on each other for.

        I’d bet $1000 you have way more things/situations to thank for making it where you are besides racism. If you want to keep it that simple, whatever, but no way in hell that was the only thing that got you where you are.
        Mr. SSC recently posted…Time Can Rack up Debts, Just Like MoneyMy Profile

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        1. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I guess let me ask in a different way that might make me sound more normal: would you be willing to relocate to a state like Virginia that may have more racism then to a place like California or Hawaii where there is potentially less racism because there is more diversity?

          After over 900 votes in my post, 60% say move to Virginia to be less comfortable to grow up quicker.

          After over 900 votes in my post, 60% say move to Virginia to be less comfortable to grow up quicker.

          As an ex-racist with children, do you ever wonder about the diversity of the environment your children grow up in? How important is diversity to your family?

          I am fascinated by many different opinions. And you are the first person to admit you had racist tendencies growing up. This takes courage, so thank you.

          It makes me happy that people can improve and the world is becoming more tolerant and accepting with each generation.

          Thx,

          Sam
          Financial Samurai recently posted…Three Favorite Ways To Earn Money And Pay Less TaxesMy Profile

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          1. Ahhhh…. Yes, relocating to a place perceived to be more racist vs a more diverse area like CA or HI. That’s a much more reasonable way to look at it. I say that you can’t look at a place as having more or less diversity being a reliable indicator of that place having more or less racist people and attitudes in it. Unfortunately, I haven’t lived anywhere yet that I haven’t seen people being hateful, bigoted, and racist. KY, GA, CO, LA, TX, OK, you can find racism and intolerance in any of those states. There is racism and bigotry in Houston, and that is one hell of a diverse city.

            We had Roanoke, VA on our radar for our relocation place for a variety of reasons, but never once thought that we better not because they may be “more racist” there.

            We did talk about the fact that if we moved out to Canyon Lake the kids school diversity would drop significantly. What can you do except promote more diversity within the home?

            Even relocating to our current area, the population diversity is fairly low, mostly white, so we work to expose them to different experiences. We take the kids to the museum often and different cultural festivals or events around town, like when the Henan Puppet Troupe came and performed, that was a cool show.

            It’s just something you have to be aware of as a parent of any kid in any situation. Show them as much of others peoples cultures that you can and show how different cultures have different traditions, foods, and practices. That and teaching them to be nice and accepting of other people.

            There’s not much else you can do. Maybe there is and I’ve missed the boat, but that’s how I see it. They’ll form their own opinions on life and people and cultures, which they should do. You just hope you’ve given them enough guidance to make good decisions and opinions and not turn into a hateful asshole for whatever reason.

            As far as each eneration getting better and more tolerant, yeah I think a lot of it is when people want to change and make that change. I’m not racist or promote any of that mentality I was raised with. My brother married a mixed race woman (gasp) so he’s out of that whole mentality, and my sister is basically the same. People can change, it’s just if they want to.

            I personally wouldn’t make a decision to move or not move somewhere based on potential racist/bigoted/hateful attitudes because unfortunately, you can find that anywhere you go.
            Mr. SSC recently posted…Time Can Rack up Debts, Just Like MoneyMy Profile

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            1. “It’s just something you have to be aware of as a parent of any kid in any situation. Show them as much of others peoples cultures that you can and show how different cultures have different traditions, foods, and practices. That and teaching them to be nice and accepting of other people.”

              Amen, brother.

              Reply

          2. I agree with Mr. SSC on this one. I wouldn’t send my kid to a school with known racists in order to toughen him or her up. Your son will meet plenty of jerks in college and the workplace. And that’s enough.

            Reply

        2. Another awesome comment, Mr. SSC. I love that you learned to empathize with others as a result of that hate crime. Empathy is the first step when it comes to fixing broken moral windows.

          Reply

      2. Fascinating, Sam. Thanks for jumping in. I always thought racism would act as a spur as well. I suffered very little of it so I never had the motivation to get back at my detractors by succeeding. But a lot of our fellow bloggers believe otherwise. They think racism crushes the spirit to do well.

        Reply

    2. Awesome comment, Mr. SSC. I find nothing more inspiring than redemption. Congratulations on conquering your broken moral windows. I was more fortunate on that account. My family wasn’t perfect, but they rarely if ever used racial or ethnic slurs, and they never thought minorities should be discriminated against. I distinctly remember my mother explaining to me how Anita Bryant was wrong and gay people should be allowed to teach in schools. I did, sadly, hear a lot of anti-semitic slurs growing up–not from my family, mind you, but from classmates. Our town was roughly 50/50 Christian/Jewish and a lot of Christian kids were jealous of how well Jewish kids did in school. But thankfully, that stupidity pretty much ended in junior high. Anyway, that’s my long-winded way of saying I grew up in a remarkably tolerant environment and had no serious broken moral windows to fix.

      Reply

  23. Great piece Mr. Groovy.

    I too thought that there is a natural correlation between FI and libertarian/conservative thinking, leaving “mainstream FI” in the minority. Most people I know who have paid their debts and are building wealth are horrified, for example, by the concept of “universal debt forgiveness” for everyone else who didn’t pay off their student loans. And they generally disagree with big social programs (such as free college for all) that would take more taxes out of their paychecks, now that they see how much better they can enjoy their full income debt-free.

    What I understand less is the very small number of people I know who have made this debt-free journey but still embrace social ideas that would lead to high taxes.

    Health care, climate change, etc are all a little lofty for me but maybe I will learn more from my friends in the latter group about their views on the basic economics and write a blog post.

    Reply

    1. Believe me, it’s lofty for me too. Part of the reason I blog is to hash out my thoughts. It’s a little scary. Others will see the flaws in your arguments and let you know about them. But that’s how you learn. And I hear ya about the seemingly illogical affinity some people have for higher taxes. I think keeping and spending the vast majority of the money you make is the essence of freedom. I think part of the reason has to do with compassion. They want to end the suffering and squalor they see and they think the government is the best means for doing that. They also think that what they’ll lose in taxes will be offset by what they’ll gain in government freebies. Are they right? Only time will tell. Thanks for stopping by, Vanessa. I really appreciate your kind words and what you had to share. Cheers.

      Reply

  24. Groovy —

    Re: Tribalism …

    I can’t unpack your entire post but this is a key point for me. I felt great sadness the day one of my boys came home from 1st Grade and asked, “Am I white?” His grandparents on one side are Jewish New Yorkers, wonderful left leaning people. His grandparents on the other side are French and Polish Midwestern farmers (the French and Polish sides did not always get along, by the way) who are salt of the earth, and raised to avoid politics. We don’t emphasize these backgrounds too much, other than to say isn’t that interesting and also isn’t it great that these family backgrounds can come together freely? My wedding featured a priest and a rabbi and a bunch of people celebrating the fact that the human race has matured enough to let that happen. Huzzah.

    Why should a 7 year old now classify himself “white” when it was a bad idea to begin with? Should we be reducing his interesting family background to a single and not particularly useful element? And why should he start thinking differently of his friends? One friend’s mom is from Senegal and dad is from Bolivia. Another friend’s mom is from India and dad from the Philippines. Does he need to start classifying them? And what would be the purpose of that, other than confusion?

    My issue with tribalism (in the form you describe) is that it’s myopic, unhelpful, and it ultimately breaks down to absurdity. Spend some time in cultures around the world and our particularly American way of looking at some of these issues looks quite silly. Black/white makes no sense in rural China. These distinctions are not universal human truths and focusing on them turns us into the kids from Lord of the Flies. However well-meaning, emphasizing tribal identity does not make things better. You’ve probably heard of Sam Harris’ podcast — he’s very cogent on these points.

    Imagine an alien landed on our planet and saw us arguing and fighting about tribal distinctions … an intelligent life form would be right to think, “Hmmm, lots of potential here but these humans are focused on all the wrong things. I’m going to turn them into batteries.”

    All for now, looking forward to seeing the fur fly online. –R
    Rich recently posted…Monthly Money Check: Rich On Track, Close To A Cash Windfall –June 2018My Profile

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    1. “Why should a 7 year old now classify himself “white” when it was a bad idea to begin with? Should we be reducing his interesting family background to a single and not particularly useful element?”

      My sentiments exactly. The tribalism we’re pushing today is not doing us any favors. It’s making us more divisive, more suspicious of each other, and more incapable of working together on large undertakings. Not good. I just hope more Americans heed your good sense. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. Cheers.

      Reply

  25. Whoa… ok, wow. Lots to unpack here.

    First things first… thanks for the shout out. I’m glad that we can have these frank and honest discussions. And am looking forward to one of these times we can look each other square in the eye and have it. Over several cold beverages. Also… Landshark?!?! Come on Man!!!

    Alright, on to the meat of this thing. Despite, the reference to my bleeding heart, I’ll have to bring up a couple points that I’m game to discuss.

    In reference to the white supremist. Ignorance is something that can be forgiven, and righted. Now, willful ignorance is something completely different. When you are aware of a conflicting, potentially superior view point and choose to follow a different path, you are now taking full responsibility for yourself. But, given the idea that a person has not been exposed to outside views, there’s no reason to think they are evil or otherwise.

    I think a bit of this plays into you argument about privilege. There’s a great little story:

    “A deer is walking along the stream and looks down and sees a fish. He promptly says, ‘Hey, fish, how’s the water?’ The fish replies, ‘What’s water?'”

    I guess the moral is, being white heterosexual males, we have no idea what it’s like to be in another person’s shoes. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never been stopped walking down the street for no reason. I’ve never been told, “Wear a tight dress, the president of the other company likes to flirt” in preparation for a business meeting.

    We also assume that everyone has equal access to the education that we have been provided.

    I was on a really long car ride today, looking out the window at some very destitute people. And I couldn’t help but think to myself, if I was more worried about where my next meal came from, I don’t know that I would be in the position that I am in now.

    I’m not going to sit here and say, that everyone should be given everything. I’m also not going to belittle that you and myself have put in many hours of hard work to get where we are. But that is to say, that maybe we have been provided certain advantages, that we need to at the very least acknowledge.

    I certainly don’t think everyone should be given a free college education, the basic principle says that once everyone has one, there is no value in said object anymore. But exposure to opposing and sometimes better view points helps to eliminate the ignorance issues mentioned earlier, so some education is beneficial.

    Healthcare is a point that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on. The idea that in a modern prosperous society, you can tell me that you value someone’s life based on the balance in their checkbook is a little disheartening. Taking your argument to the logical end is a little scary, “Poor people deserve to die.” What happens when we continue consolidating wealth and you’re considered poor?

    And that’s not to say that other systems are better, but the simple fact that a healthcare company can profit $1BB a month, by denying basic healthcare to their paying customers is disgusting. How many cancer screenings and treatments, or mammograms or knee replacements, or heart surgeries can be bought with $1BB a month? I know government isn’t typically the answer, nor is it horribly efficient, but it’s there to manage the greater public good in society.

    Would you voluntarily pay to pave a road? Or fix potholes? Or fund a fire department? Probably not, at least until you need it. And that’s the issue.

    Also, removing the profit motive from healthcare, means there can be concentration on prevention, rather than the treatment of symptoms. Symptoms are profitable and less effective. Prevention is more effective and way less profitable.

    Now, after writing my own too long response to your already too long article, the great irony is that I actually agree with a large majority of what you are saying. Being dealt a short hand, is not an excuse to not succeed. Nor is it a reason to point fingers and pass of responsibility for your own actions. It most certainly is in the hands of the individual.

    I also agree about the tribalism. There is something beautiful about a pure meritocracy. But, like most things it tends to be great in theory, but the application in the real world is where it gets really messy.

    All in all, very thought provoking. I’m glad there are people out there way smarter than me working on this. And really, I think it’s going to take many many smart people to come together and hash out these things. It’s been going on for millennia and we’re not any closer, so here’s to another thousand years of arguments over cold beers!!!

    Reply

    1. Hey, Mr. WoW. Great comment as always. Here are my thoughts.

      “I guess the moral is, being white heterosexual males, we have no idea what it’s like to be in another person’s shoes. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never been stopped walking down the street for no reason.”

      When I was growing up, a bully who was much older and bigger used to dunk me in his pool and tell me there was “nothing lower than an Italian.”

      When I was in college, I went into a public restroom on campus one day and someone wrote in large letters on the back of a stall door, “Catholics Suck Shit.”

      And it the late 80s I got stopped by cops for no reason while I was driving through a black neighborhood. They wanted to know “what I was doing there.”

      So, yes, I can never completely know what it means to be a minority in America. But I have an idea what it means to be treated cruelly or unfairly (just look at Twitter), and I have an idea what it means to have poor financial habits. For the first forty years of my life, I was a financial moron. In other words, I don’t see why I can’t point out ways anyone, regardless of their race or economic background, is screwing him or herself. But you make a valid point and I thank you.

      “When you are aware of a conflicting, potentially superior view point and choose to follow a different path, you are now taking full responsibility for yourself. But, given the idea that a person has not been exposed to outside views, there’s no reason to think they are evil or otherwise.”

      Fair point, and I total agree. The white supremacist example may not have been the best. I was trying to make the argument that at some point, when we’re adults, we can no longer use our upbringing as an excuse for doing stupid or evil things. And while the white supremacist would surely be exposed to more wholesome viewpoints, someone raised in poverty might not. That’s why I’m a big advocate of introducing wealth studies into K-12 education. Like you correctly pointed out, how would someone know there’s a different way if they’ve never been introduced to a different way.

      “Also, removing the profit motive from healthcare, means there can be concentration on prevention, rather than the treatment of symptoms. Symptoms are profitable and less effective. Prevention is more effective and way less profitable.”

      And there’s healthcare. I think you and I agree more than you might suspect. I really think the healthcare problem should be broken up into two parts. The first part is the cost part. We got to figure out how to lower the cost of medical procedures, medical devices, and drugs. And there are a number of ways to do that that don’t compromise freedom. Then, after we fix the cost part, we should turn to the “who pays the costs” part. There are three groups that should get subsidies. The poor, the elderly, and those with pre-existing conditions. And, again, I think there are a number of ways to do that that don’t compromise paycheck freedom. Well, that’s my pathetic two cents. Love the way you challenge my ideas, my friend. It pisses me off I can’t answer your challenges very effectively, but I welcome your challenges nonetheless. Can’t wait to solve the healthcare problem with you over some ice cold beers.

      Reply

  26. I think that FI is in some ways becoming more like a tribe and with that there is tribalism.
    The issues that you raise are of course very relevant and I wouldn’t like to think that we’ll discriminate in the 100 years time like we discriminate now or like 100 years ago.
    There is more diversity within groups than there is between groups – and if diversity is not encouraged, you end up with weaker teams, unhappier people and less successful outcomes overall.

    One reason for me looking towards FI is to free myself from the influence of others and by definition that involves diversity (of one).

    Reply

    1. “There is more diversity within groups than there is between groups – and if diversity is not encouraged, you end up with weaker teams, unhappier people and less successful outcomes overall.”

      Interesting. I got to think about this one. Great comment.

      Reply

    1. Thanks for the kind words, Dave. The mob is out in force. The five-minute hate looks like it’s going to turn into five-day hate–and maybe even five-month hate. But that’s what free speech is all about. I wouldn’t have it any other way. You’re the best, my friend. Cheers.

      Reply

  28. Great work. I don’t or wouldn’t agree with every sentence you wrote (especially the healthcare solution), but wanting freedom is not “extreme”. I am disappointed by how quickly I’ve been called extreme by other PF bloggers because I want personal and economic freedom.

    I loved the comment about something that’s bad today doesn’t immediately become virtuous when the government delivers it. Look at the TSA – It isn’t magically bad when we had private security officers and magically good because the government runs it. Now we get to be one of the only countries in the world that uses the government and not staffing companies to employ low level security clerks. (that massive government takeover is completely from republicans)

    Reply

    1. Hey, Mr. Shirts. I hear ya, my friend. And by the way, I would love just to be called “extreme” right now by my fellow bloggers. But being called a “racist” and “Nazi” is what happens when you challenge the status quo. It’s unfortunate, but such is life. All’s fair in love, war, and blogging. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. I truly appreciate your respectful comment.

      Reply

  29. Great read, Mr Groovy. I agree with most of the basic points you’ve made here.

    The healthcare part is one where I might disagree a bit, but maybe that’s because we haven’t had a free market for healthcare in half a century (or more??).

    I’m not quite ready to shut the emergency room door to those who can’t pay in full with the end result being dead bodies piling up at the door where the sick but insured have to climb over said piles of bodies to get treatment. And some people are sicker than others and can’t provide for themselves. I’d definitely like our system to look different from how it looks today but I’m afraid I don’t have many answers of how to structure it.

    It’s such a convoluted market and the ACA subsidies help make it affordable to the great mass of humanity in our country earning sub-400% of poverty level. But it seems a grossly inefficient bandaid that should be ripped off at some point and the underlying problems addressed.

    Reply

    1. Hey, Justin. Thanks for your very kind words. I really appreciate it. Yep, healthcare is a tough cookie. And to make matters worse, half the country wants to go in a socialist direction and the other half wants to go in a free market direction. I think the only answer at this point is set up a competition for the two approaches. Give the people the option between “Medicare for All” and a totally free market option. And if the “Medicare for All” option–with no subsidies–proves to be better, it will grow naturally. Everyone will flock to it. Well, that’s my twisted view. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. I really appreciate it. Cheers.

      Reply

      1. I think you’re right – there are two distinct ways to go on health insurance and I really don’t know which one is right to be honest. I definitely lean libertarian but I also look at the empirical examples of all the other developed nations in the world that have some sort of universal-ish coverage.

        It seems to be cheaper and prob. better than the hodgepodge mess we have right now. And we already have Medicare for all for the 65+ set, so we kind of know what it might look like.

        But do we need another layer of govt insurance or could the private market provide? Lots of questions and I wish I were smarter to help figure it all out 🙂

        Reply

        1. “It seems to be cheaper and prob. better than the hodgepodge mess we have right now. And we already have Medicare for all for the 65+ set, so we kind of know what it might look like.”

          Agreed. Extremely tough problem. Like you, I lean libertarian, so I’d love a free-market option. But I understand why most of my fellow Americans have no interest in that. Our drug companies haven’t exactly shown the best side of the free market. Oh, well. Medicare-for-all, here we come.

          Reply

  30. Wow! This has got me thinking.

    I need to spend more time reading and thinking about your thoughts. I honestly don’t know what camp I would fall into.

    In my writing, I like to focus on how we can make better financial choices (and be better humans), regardless of who we are. Some people would probably say that I grew up privileged because I’m white growing up in the suburbs. They would also point out that I make a six-figure income, which gives me more advantages. But I think when we put people into boxes, we generalize too much. Was I able to earn a six-figure income after quitting college because I’m white? Is my hard work and effort discounted because I’m not a minority?

    I don’t want to discount other peoples struggles, but I’m not going to let my struggles be an excuse for my stupid ass money mistakes.

    I think I agree with your libertarian view of finances. I do think we can change our future by changing our behavior and our thoughts. And by working our asses off.

    What I’m not sure on is whether or not I agree with your libertarian views on the political side of this discussion. Government waste bothers me greatly, and our healthcare system is expensive. I don’t want “free” healthcare, I just don’t think as Americans we should be paying more for it than other countries.

    This has got me thinking. Thanks for sharing!
    Chris Roane recently posted…WPEngine WordPress Hosting ReviewMy Profile

    Reply

    1. Thanks, Chris. This is exactly the type of comment I was hoping my post would elicit. Your second-to-last sentence was spot on. Like you, I don’t want “free” healthcare either, and, like you, I recognize that the system is in need of a total overhaul. What I would love to see is a competition between a socialist answer and a free market answer. Let people have a choice. Let the competition begin. And if the socialist answer proves to be superior, I’ll be the first one to say I was wrong. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. Cheers.

      Reply

  31. I just hope your blood pressure didn’t skyrocket while you wrote this treatise. Dang brotha!

    Some I agree with – but remember my broken record advice: we can’t ever pretend to fully understand the struggles of others. We get breaks and fortune smiles – hard work compounds it. But life isn’t always a neat and easy equation for many. Compassion is always that little bell that dings when my writing gets a bit too macro-subjective. The smug part I’m still working on. Big government or small? I care less about that than the condition or our culture and values.
    Cubert recently posted…How Getting Promoted Complicates Early Retirement PlansMy Profile

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    1. Hey, Cubert. No, actually. My blood pressure remained normal throughout the composition. I’m really fascinated with ideas and the prevailing orthodoxy. And this post was my way of hashing out why I disagree with some aspects of the prevailing orthodoxy. And I couldn’t agree more about your sentiment about caring more about culture and values than big or small government. I really think that 90 percent of our problems are culture and values based. But, hey, that’s grist for another post. Thanks for stopping by, my friend. I really appreciate it.

      Reply

  32. I think perhaps Twitter has switched this issue based on who you tend to see most often, but if you looked at the financial independence as a whole, I think your Alt-FI is actually describing the majority, not the other way around.

    You know I have a LOT that I disagree with you on here (but nowhere near all), and perhaps someday I’ll come visit Budget Epicurean and see you face to face at the same time.

    One question though, how do you see my Wednesday roundups fit in here then? And my 4,300 member (and growing) women’s Facebook group, where time and time again ladies post and are so glad to have that separate space.

    You know we 100% agree on the litter issue at least! You should hear the stories from Cents Positive and my armfuls of trash 😉
    Angela @ Tread Lightly Retire Early recently posted…Women’s Personal Finance Wednesdays: Week 22 RoundupMy Profile

    Reply

    1. Alt-FI as the majority was my thought too. Any time I tweet something saying that women should be treated equally I get attacked and unfollowed by FI bloggers. I feel like the sort of progressive-minded blogger that you’re referring to is not as common as you suggest. Maybe neither the progressive caucus nor your “alt-FI” group is in the mainstream.

      “Do mainstream FI people feel the same way about alt-FI people? I like to think so, but I have my concerns.”

      Perhaps I am not the best person to assess this, as you have highlighted me as a respectful debater, but I feel like this is much more of a problem going the other way. I can count on one hand the number of people that have disagreed and debated with me respectfully (you included, of course) when I write or tweet progressive opinions. It is far more likely that I will get attacked personally or called names. I can’t even count the number of libertarian-minded (or alt-FI in your framing) folks who have responded by insulting me and resorting to ad hominem attacks rather than debating the issue with any level of respect.
      Matt @ Optimize Your Life recently posted…Advocating for Women Has Helped My CareerMy Profile

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      1. I questioned whether the SJW set is really the majority of FI bloggers too. Maybe a more vocal minority of FI bloggers? Though Mr Groovy clearly reads/interacts with a ton more FI bloggers than I do (hey, I’m retired! 😉 ).

        Reply

        1. Hey, Justin. I think the SJW set is small relative to the entire FI community. But I think the SJW set is larger in the under-30 blogging community. You got to check out Twitter. The SJW set is in full 5-minute hate mode. “Groovy man bad.”

          Reply

      2. “Alt-FI as the majority was my thought too.”

        It’s amazing how two intelligent people (well, at least one, anyway) can see the world so differently. Although judging by the way Twitter is blowing up, I’d say the mainstream FI is the majority. I’m getting very little love.

        “I can count on one hand the number of people that have disagreed and debated with me respectfully (you included, of course) when I write or tweet progressive opinions. It is far more likely that I will get attacked personally or called names.”

        I’m truly sorry this happens to you. I know you’re a man of honor and if I ever happen to catch someone attacking you on Twitter for your progressive views, I’ll leap to your defense.

        Oh, and speaking about defense, I could actually use yours. The small mainstream FI community is really tearing me a new one on Twitter. Someone just archived this post. Haha! I guess there goes my potential Supreme Court nomination. Hey, no one ever said blogging was going to be easy. I think my next post is going to be, “How To End a Trivial Blogging Career in 8,000 Words or Less.” You’re the best, my friend. I hope you continue to stop by every now and then, but I would understand if you didn’t. Cheers.

        Reply

    3. YES COME VISIT! Right meow. Please.

      Also, wait what, I’m “mainstream”? And cool enough to be mentioned on a blog with Groovy in the name!? Look ma, I made it!! No matter what we may agree or disagree on, you Groovies are cool cats in person and we love you. Invite me to Groovy Ranch soon?? I’ll bring cookies, quail eggs, and/or canned goods, I promise!
      the budget epicurean recently posted…Weekly Eating – 2/11/19My Profile

      Reply

      1. Thank you, BE. I know you don’t agree with much of what I wrote, but at least you recognize that I’m not coming from a place of malice. You’re always welcome at Groovy Ranch. But after the SJWs get through with me, you might find it a little too radioactive to visit. Wish me luck, BE. I’m gonna need it.

        Reply

    4. Hey, Angela. I actually like your Wednesday roundups. That’s why I’m so torn by “tribalism.” It can be very toxic, and I think it’s important that we recognize this toxicity. Gender is definitely a tough call when it comes to tribalism. Back on Long Island, there’s a female only gym called Lucille Roberts, and I have no problem with that. Likewise, I have no problem with a male-only golf club. But I would have a problem with a gym or golf club that discriminated on race. So why is one form of tribalism okay and not the other? That’s what I was trying to point out. Where do we draw the line? Thank you for stopping by, Angela. And thank you for challenging me in a respectful manner. I truly appreciate it.

      Reply

  33. hey groovies. i can’t claim to be much of a “joiner” of groups and am not sure i consider myself part of the FI group. i will tell you that i like to read and write stuff that has an independent thought angle with no regard for the naysayers. we’re probably alike in that way. i’ll say that some of the virtue-signalling and tone has turned me away from some stuff i used to read. i find it divisive.

    i often make fun of this: “we’re INCLUSIVE…..as long as you agree with everything we say.” rock on.
    freddy smidlap recently posted…Why I Love Our Crappy KitchenMy Profile

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    1. “I often make fun of this: “we’re INCLUSIVE…..as long as you agree with everything we say.” rock on.”

      Exactly! And that was the kind of intolerant thinking I was hoping to highlight in this post. I see too many divisive thoughts and attitudes seeping into this community and this was my ham-fisted way of sounding the alarm. Thank you for stopping by, my friend. I really appreciate it.

      Reply

  34. First, to quote Dave at Accidental FIRE “kittens die, nuns cry, and unicorns lose their glitter when people argue politics on the internet.” And with that, I dare to continue on and comment 🙂

    There 2 types of people in the world: those that divide people into 2 groups and those that don’t! Aren’t you making things tribal by grouping people as Mainstream vs Alt FI?

    That said, I feel your most interesting point is “Would you give this white supremacist a pass? I mean, after all, it wasn’t his fault he was born into a racist family. ” Everyone needs to stop living in the past and leave their victimhood behind. What is the point of trying to spread the word on financial literacy if people think they are stuck because of their birth conditions? So, thank you for this really interesting analogy.

    P.S. Maybe it’s because I’m not famous, but I am so glad not to be listed as a Mainstream FI person!
    Susan @ FI Ideas recently posted…Maybe It’s Time to Stop Your WINE-ingMy Profile

    Reply

    1. “There 2 types of people in the world: those that divide people into 2 groups and those that don’t! Aren’t you making things tribal by grouping people as Mainstream vs Alt FI?”

      Hmmm! Holy crap, I don’t know if I thought this post through. I guess by championing the alt-FI worldview, I am dividing people into tribes. Can a little bit of tribalism being okay? Excellent catch, Susan. Thanks for making me think.

      Reply

    2. When Hillary lost to Donald, Tanja Hester left her job and got really angry at anybody who leaned right.

      I don’t blame her. If I was a raging feminist who pushed for Hillary for so many years I’d feel angry and depressed too.

      But it’s not right to try and bully people online.

      Reply

  35. Man this hurts my head! I can’t believe I agree with a #$%@ Yankee up and down the line. And please don’t tell me North Carolina is in the South, it has North in its freakin name for Pete’s sake! Nobody from the real south would ever tolerate naming their beloved state with that word in it.

    But aside from that, what a well thought out and presented post. However you lost the PETA peeps right off with the furrier guys, they think they should be in jail for war crimes and not reinventing themselves as new successes.

    It almost inspires me to take on my pet peeves in this community which include people who have less guns than warm bodies in their home, anthropomorphizing dogs and cats and letting live animals inside the house where the people live, and having less than three cars for two people, Oh, and failing to talk sense into your kids or any friend seriously considering a liberal arts major for a college degree. The horror!
    Steveark recently posted…I Won the Social Security Lottery!My Profile

    Reply

    1. “I can’t believe I agree with a #$%@ Yankee up and down the line.”

      LOL! I’m a dying breed. I Northerner who believes in freedom, and will fight for freedom regardless of how uncool that fight is. Thank for stopping by, my friend. And thanks for your support. I need all the support I can get. The SJWs are out for blood.

      Reply

      1. Funny how the progressives get so angry if you refuse to agree with them and think in the “correct” way, while the conservatives don’t insist on having your agreement.

        The world is heading towards a new type of left wing fascism. Dangerous times.

        Great post, never read your stuff before… subscribed.

        Reply

        1. Haha! You’ve just described progressive privilege. They say what words mean and what viewpoints are suitable for polite society. And anyone who dares to disagree is a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, an Islamaphobe, etc., etc. As you pointed out, it’s the personification of “leftwing fascism.” Thanks for stopping by, my friend. I really appreciate what you had to say. Great comment.

          Reply

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